Milley ??
39 responses | 0 likes
Started by wglassfo - Sept. 15, 2021, 3:40 p.m.

It seems there is no question Milley had conversations with china and possibly other world leaders in the final days of Trumps days in office. Milley claims he was giving assurances that Milley would not allow Trump to go rogue and start a war with china or other countries. Milley claims he was protecting the USA from a nuclear war if Trump went rogue. Trump was unaware of these conversations and claims he had no intention of starting any wars with anybody Thus, did Milley  follow the usual chain of command decision making. Who knew about Milley's conversations??

The question I have

Is this a precedent where, as of now, the military can usurp or disregard civilian military decisions. Can the military dis-regard a presidential order to protect or not protect Taiwan. We know the pentagon has two schools of thought about Taiwan.  The two are protect or not protect Taiwan

Could the military do the unthinkable and cause  no action precisely when the president needs action from the military??

You may say this is a one off situation which is what Biden claims.  

Is it possible this precedent will give future military generals or such high ranking unelected military commanders, powers that they may use "for the good of the country", unknown to civilian control or wishes??

 I think a dangerous precedent has been established and now or in the future the military would not listen to civilian wishes if the military disagrees and usurps military power, which would be "for the good of the country".  

What happens if Biden becomes confused and gives an order to attack  ???

Should the military take action, or no action, contrary to an order from the president if all the top generals think such action would endanger the USA

Where does civilian control of the military start and end given the actions of Milley??

I think the USA and Biden are in a tough spot re: Taiwan

The president does not need a military that is divided and refuses to act or not act.

Milley set the president of not telling the president of his actions

What happens the next time?? or some yrs from now and disagreement happens

Comments
Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By metmike - Sept. 15, 2021, 5 p.m.
Like Reply

Thanks Wayne!

Great topic.

Rubio demands Biden fire Milley

https://thehill.com/homenews/administration/572267-rubio-demands-biden-fire-gen-milley


"Peril" also said that Milley feared Trump could "go rogue," according to CNN.

"General Milley has attempted to rationalize his reckless behavior by arguing that what he perceived as the military’s judgement as more stable than its civilian commander," Rubio also said in the letter."


metmike: Anybody without a Trump captured brain would see crystal clearly that Trump had already gone blatantly and extremely dangerously rogue and nothing could be ruled out.

He had already refused to accept the indisputably proven valid by every standard election results and the will of the people and wanted to stop Biden from being appointed president. His encouragement led to the Insurrection. Had he accepted the will of the people and democratic election, like every single defeated person running in history did.....none of that would have happened.

Even today, he continues to spew total, 100%  nonsense about The Big Lie that continues to be believed by tens of millions or republicans.

When he lost the election, something totally snapped in his head and he had a mental break down and turned into a dangerous psychopath.

That was shown to spend his last days scheming how to stay in office, with proven lies, and totally manufactured and dishonest accusations of election fraud that never existed in order to discredit the election results.

His damage to our democratic election process/system is now permanent with many tens of millions of people convinced there was widespread, systemic fraud during the most secure election (proven with recounts, investigations and legal challenges) in recent history.

We are supposed to trust the decision making of somebody like this in his last few days in office?

He even viciously attacked his own, always loyal and compliant  vice president, Mike Pence for not trying to help him overturn the election.

He was mentally ill and desperate.

Tell me the last time we had a president in office like this?

No, not Biden. 

Biden may be cognitively incompetent but comparing that to Trump after he lost the election is totally NOT understanding the grave danger that Trump not only posed but he friggin INFLICTED on this country that we are still paying a price for today.

We have NEVER had a president have a total mental and ethical breakdown in office over a lost election, becoming unhinged and unpredictable, except that he will do whatever he can to stay in office.......not until Donald Trump lost that is.

I had to make hundreds of posts proving to others here that he really did lose the election, so I know where you all stand but the truth is the truth and this moderator will always represent that fact based truths.

I would argue against Milley's actions in every other case in history..........except, on this one, he was clearly justified in spades and I'm proud of him for doing the right thing for our country and guarding against this particular element of the extremely high risk that rogue President Trump posed to our country after he lost the election.

No mcfarm, I'm not a writer for the NYT's and I didn't accuse Trump of secretly bombing China. Read the explanation above and tell me what I got wrong instead of making those absurd accusations because you're a Trump supporter. 

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=go%20rogue

go rogue

To cease to follow orders; to act on one's own, usually against expectation or instruction. To pursue one's own interests.

By mcfarm - Sept. 15, 2021, 6:16 p.m.
Like Reply

that is being too cute by 1/2 MM and way beneath you as a person.  You said "starting a war with china" I did not look back and used the word bombing. So kind of hard to start a war without bombing these days, wouldn't ya think. Yes the same thing is implied and understood and you very well know it. Trump was nuts you say. so crazy he could of started a war...well except for that silly little fact he did not

By metmike - Sept. 15, 2021, 7:15 p.m.
Like Reply

Thanks mcfarm,

Your defense is that he didn't start a war with China.

That's it.

That's true and he didn't start a war with Russia, Iran, North Korea, France or Canada either.

However, he was saying and doing desperate, fraudulent loose cannon things left and right almost daily after losing the election that were all based on lies and all intended to accomplish his one and only objective..........to remain in office.

We have it all on record, so there's no question about the actions.

He would do anything to anybody(including Pence) and to sheet on the people's legal, democratic choice from our country(overturn the will of the people)  to stay in office.

A totally unstable person with that frame of mind, having the power to start a war with his biggest foreign enemy, China has to be neutralized. Especially knowing his long history of being impulsive.

What if there was only a 10% chance of him doing it? Or even a 5% chance?

That's means a 95% chance of him not doing it and he didn't do it..........so does that mean there never was a chance of him doing it because he didn't do it?

That 5% chance, considering his mental break down and frame of mind is not unreasonable but what if it was just 1% chance.

A 1% chance of the potential of many millions of lives being lost from Trump starting a nuclear war is exactly 1% too high. A .001% chance is much too high.

Trumps mentality/frame of mind totally disqualified him from being the president based on any reasonable, objective persons standards. This general was there with him and observed it close up for weeks and weeks. 

You will remember that I supported and defended many of Trumps decisions while he was in office, prior to the election and was not a never Trumper.

When he went totally rogue after losing the election, he lost all credibility for me.  I didn't change. The facts about Trump changed because of his own actions/behavior.

If you want to overlook all that.....it's your choice but this general's #1 priority was to protect the United States. In this case, protect the United States from a rogue, impulsive  president hellbent on doing whatever he needed to do to stay in office.

I totally get where General Milley was coming from.

By mcfarm - Sept. 15, 2021, 8:35 p.m.
Like Reply

ok I got it. It' s crystal clear now. You are indicting Trump for something he did not do. Wow, Where have we had that experience before? And just how many times has the guy been indicted for crap he did not do? Meanwhile we have a new President so lacking in mental health he does not know where he is, we have him on tape  admitting to quid pro quo. we have him deep in bed with Hunter's team to the point of being the "big guy' in charge. The list goes on and on..guilty as sin and no indictment. Man that sounds  really fair. Hell even Manson got a fair trial, but not Trump. He just must be guilty because he was getting to close to blowing up the deep state.

By metmike - Sept. 15, 2021, 8:56 p.m.
Like Reply

Do you actually even read anything that I type mcfarm?

The discussion is about why Milley took the actions that he did. Nobody is convicting Trump of something that he did not do........it's what he was at high risk of doing and our country needed to be protected from him.

Milley did what he did as a needed precaution because the rogue and impulsive Trump, with a 2 month history of being totally unstable and desperate to do things to keep himself in office   was a risk for doing those things that could have killed millions. 

Nobody, anywhere is accusing Trump of attacking or bombing China.

Or.......are you telling me that Trump was a stable, clear thinking, law abiding president that was telling the truth about the election results and didn't really disown Mike Pence and didn't really encourage people to protest against the irrefutably proven election results and didn't really try to bribe and manipulate people to change election results and didn't really manufacture dozens of fake election fraud claims in order to try to maintain office.

Is that what you are telling me mcfarm?

Because that behavior was exactly how every other defeated president and presidential candidate in history acted ...........except for one.



It's getting pointless for me to repeat the same things and you attack something different.

The topic is "why did Milley take those actions to protect our country from rogue Trump". Please stop twisting it into something totally  different and claim I'm saying things I'm not saying.





By metmike - Sept. 15, 2021, 10:20 p.m.
Like Reply

"Hell even Manson got a fair trial, but not Trump. He just must be guilty because he was getting to close to blowing up the deep state."

metmike: Since YOU brought it up, I will respond. 

You don't seriously think that was why he was defeated do you?

Trump totally brought this on himself by creating more and more and more enemies as he went along, even from his own party because he constantly attacked everybody.  Not because he was right but even when he was wrong on things.

His allies kept shrinking with time because he attacked them. 

For Pete's sake, look what he did to the most loyal vice president ever. 

When you sheet on your own vice president and leader of your party in the Senate because he/they acted ethically and honestly in recognizing the legit vote of the American people you are pretty dang low. No president in history has treated the number 2 and number 3 leaders in their parties like a pile of sheet.....when they supported their president for almost 4 years, then did the right thing for our country.

Trump Blames Pence, McConnell For Election Loss As He Blasts Liz Cheney

https://www.forbes.com/sites/andrewsolender/2021/05/05/trump-blames-pence-mcconnell-for-election-loss-as-he-blasts-liz-cheney/?sh=72de144b3088

"In a rare public attack on former Vice President Mike Pence, who recently praised Trump for his accomplishments as president, Trump repeated his false claim that Pence could have overturned the election on Jan. 6 by unilaterally decertifying state election results.

          Finally, Trump launched yet another attack on Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who refused to help overturn the election, labeling him “gutless and clueless” and claiming he could have helped precipitate a “far different Presidential result.”


metmike: You make Trump out to be the victim here. Like he was just being a good, honest president that wasn't doing anything wrong and they brought him down because he was doing the right thing, trying to expose corruption. He WAS the center of the biggest post election corruption scheme in US history!!!!

Trying to overturn a legal presidential election result, totally abusing the power of the president to the max in order to attempt  to keep himself in office. 

This is what happens in corrupt  3rd world countries run by dangerous criminals. 

By mcfarm - Sept. 16, 2021, 8:18 a.m.
Like Reply

and we have constitutional ways of dealing with what you describe about Trump. Why is it so many do not trust our constitutional these days. You even bring up 3rd world countries when in reality instead of using this wonderful gift of guidance our forefathers gifted us Milley is doing{along with vindman, Mueller,Hillary, the FBI, Swallwell, most every other D congressman} exactly what 3rd world countries do. Go rogue, run coups, appoint them selves as all knowing, go around our constitution, and commit treason.

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 12:22 p.m.
Like Reply

That Constitution narrative doesn't play well when the person that you are defending, trashed/violated the Constitution with more vigor than anybody in history.

Then, he went on to trash the number 2 Republican-Pence, number 3 republican-McConnell and number 4 republican-Cheney (according to the Constitution) for not joining him in  his attempt to overthrow the election results.

He also trashed his loyal attorney general, Bill Barr for not finding fraud and for not joining his effort to overthrow the Constitution/legal election by the people and any other republicans that were not all in for overthrowing the election results in order to keep him in office.

AP FACT CHECK: Yes, Trump lost election despite what he says

https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-michael-pence-electoral-college-elections-health-2d9bd47a8bd3561682ac46c6b3873a10


metmike: When you read that description of what Trump did, it sounds totally insane and up until this last election, nobody would ever believe that a president in office could possibly be capable of behaving this way.............but he did and it did happen.

Thus, Milley HAD TO take preventative actions to protect the totally rogue Trump from potentially doing something that could  cause the loss of life of millions.

Was Trump really a national security threat after he lost the election?

Is the pope Catholic?

Does a bear sheet in the woods?

Read the above facts again and if that still isn't clear.............then we just have to assume that you are part of Trump's cult that believes everything that he says and disbelieves the facts and most of the rest of the world.......including the top republicans surrounding him.


By mcfarm - Sept. 16, 2021, 2:02 p.m.
Like Reply

where is Tim when I need him? Pretty sure I know what he would saying that ignoring the constitution because you "felt" a certain way on a Monday or Tuesday is not one of the things he would encourage. When Milley took his oath was there some secret clause that said Honor defend and obey unless your tummy gets a funny feeling??? Milley had one choice if he was so sure about what you report MM. To resign. That;s it nothing more nothing less resign. But atleast he has one thing in his favor, he was near Trump several times.....to advise, period to advise. Not like you who has never met the man, never spoke a word to him , never had any psychological reports about him but yet has analyzed him right into a nut house from 2000 miles away. When did mets start this sideline anyway? I think you are a very smart man with many admirable traits but this new sideline should be halted. You are not qualified and do not have the information to make any such judgments.

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 3:01 p.m.
Like Reply

"I think you are a very smart man with many admirable traits but this new sideline should be halted. You are not qualified and do not have the information to make any such judgments."

mcfarm,

You love it and agree with me for years when I expose the corruption, like here:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/74854/#74883

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/74854/#74884


Then when I expose the corruption and tell the truth that you disagree with, it's"You are not qualified and do not have the information to make any such judgments."

I have news for you mcfarm:

1. The franchise for corruption and for truth is not owned by either party, despite what those affiliated with their party's think.

2. Objective, independent sources like me are usually the best and most reliable at identifying the corruption because we don't tow the party line and get ALL of our news from political sites that only tell us a one sided version of our world.

3. You can learn new things from seeing the objective truth or you can deny it and fight it. There is so, so, so much more to what's going on in the world than just recirculating things that we already think that we know. Open minds learn the most new things. Closed minds block out many learning opportunities. 

4. In a world that you/republicans vehemently object to excessive censorship in and I do my best to not censure here, isn't it ironic that you object to me being qualified for giving fact based opinions because they disagree with yours. Isn't this exactly the position that you are against and  what you accuse the other side of?


By mcfarm - Sept. 16, 2021, 3:41 p.m.
Like Reply

disagree. MM you can give all the fact based opinions in the world. That's great but very different from psychcoanaylizing...imho.

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 3:59 p.m.
Like Reply

Right mcfarm,

As long as it's to support the right, it's fine though.

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 4:13 p.m.
Like Reply

mcfarm,

Whether you disagree or not, I have been and will always be here for the same well identified, declared from the get go objectives. I have always been totally honest/transparent about that:


Please read my mission statement in life/here from 3.5 years ago:

https://www.marketforum.com/about/

Objectives/Mission:Develop the minds and character of our youth thru the game of chess. Enlighten all ages about the current climate optimum, featuring the best weather and climate in the last 1,000 years(and massive benefits of increasing CO2) using data and authentic science to battle the misinformation about the completely fake climate crisis.....AND OTHER MAJOR DISINFORMATION CAMPAIGNS.  Encourage expression of RESPECTFUL thoughts from those that disagree and receive them with an open mind/heart, hoping to learn from others. Stress and demonstrate love and tolerance, while showing the damaging affects of hatred to peoples lives. Reveal the truth...........expose lies, especially in the political realm(of both sides), which sadly includes most climate science today, while always practicing the scientific method.


You don't have to agree with everything that I say or anything that I say. I don't censor you or others for disagreeing.

But for you to claim that I don't have the right or am not qualified to try to accomplish my objectives in life or here is seriously wrong man. 


By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 4:56 p.m.
Like Reply

As I have stated always mcfarm,

I am your friend not the enemy.

I'm generously sharing information here, in hopes that there are a few cracks in minds that will allow some of it in.

If not, then at least I tried which is much better than most people that don't even  try or give up easily  or just go to places that say and think the exact same way as they do.........echo chambers.

Which is exactly what's wrong with our country today.

2 sides that completely disagree with each other on most things and they spend almost all their time reinforcing what they think they know and why the other side is evil and looking for reasons to disagree NOT see the other point of view.

The politicians, MSM, social media and other sources all feed us and brainwash us to be that way.


I'm just a voice crying out in the wilderness that, at least tried and maybe a view lurkers learned a few things. 



                Captured brains            

                            Started by metmike - April 10, 2021, 12:32 a.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/67714/

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 5:16 p.m.
Like Reply

Most of our politicians are corrupt............but the people believe one side and take one side anyway.

They believe the talk show hosts opinions on the shows they go to because those celebrities say what people watching/listening want to hear, even when it's not the truth. 

I can't compete with that because, at times I will back the truth from one party and bash the lies from the other party, then, turn around and recognize the truth from the party that was lying before and bashing the party that previously was telling the truth and now is lying.

Turns out, I ticked off both sides doing that the last couple of years....but will never regret standing for the truth.

The Green Mile Quotes - MagicalQuote | Im tired boss, Tired of people,  Famous movie quotes



By mcfarm - Sept. 16, 2021, 6:29 p.m.
Like Reply

when you look in the mirror are you happy with what you see? At the end of the day are you happy with what you have done? If you can answer yes, Keep on keeping on MM

By metmike - Sept. 16, 2021, 6:51 p.m.
Like Reply

Well said mcfarm!



Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By 7475 - Sept. 16, 2021, 10:30 p.m.
Like Reply

 Does Milley expect me to believe that "Rogue' Trump could could simply pull out the nuclear football, punch in the code and launch a barrage at China?!!!? He would know the codes for the China bound nukes?? Cause certainly he wouldn't want to launch them all and destroy countries he has no immediate beef with.

 How would a rogue president know which button to push so that only the 2 icbm s aimed at N Korea, let's say, would launch if those guys happened to piss him off one day-which 2 buttons??? 

C'mon man -it ain't just one rogue guy involved here. Tons of people are involved in a launch-the Pres only acts with the football to give them permission-Sheeesh Milley who ya talking to???

 Get rid of that lying mother Milley. Who's guilty of coup- like behavior???

  John

Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By wglassfo - Sept. 16, 2021, 11:57 p.m.
Like Reply

MM

You seem to be saying that Trump might have been or was so unstable he could have gone rogue and started a war that nobody would want

So:

Milley took it upon himself to take such actions unknown to the president to protect the country

As I understand it, Milley did not ask for any  civilian over sight or control

I hope I have this much correct. Correct me where I mis-understand

A couple questions as to how your system works

Is civilian over sight part of how your system works??Is this part of your system to stop a military coup??

 Can a high ranking general or ??  now dis-regard the checks and balances of your system and since a precedent has now been established, [by Milley's actions],  did he take action with out civilian knowledge 

Because of this precedent now established by Milley, would it be possible for a general or group of general's to ignore civilian over sight and do what they think is "for the good of the country" ?? Any thing might now or in the future, prompt a high ranking general to think the current civilian over sight has gone rogue and thus the military [perhaps a number of generals agree] that the military needs to execute a coup to save the country from corrupt or dangerous civilian over sight. In other words one small action by Milley today, might encourage a larger action, by the military in the future, if it is thought to be for the good of the country.

My second question and I admit to not knowing how your system works

Is there a chain of command that a general such as Milley has to execute before taking such actions as he did??

Did Milley go rogue by ignoring the accepted chain of command??

This has nothing to do with Trump's state of mind. It could be any president, or what ever you consider civilian over sight of the military, in the future. These are questions about how your system works and if there is any danger of small events today, becoming bigger issues in the future

I am asking because I really don't know your checks and balances of civilian vs military and how it is supposed to work

By metmike - Sept. 17, 2021, 2:43 a.m.
Like Reply

Appreciate the views very much!

What's interesting is it once again boils down to what political side you're on here(I belong to neither party) or what source you get your news from.

The ones extremely outraged over Milley's actions, somehow managed to overlook and even support Trump for violating the Constitution and doing the most damage to our country than any president in history by refusing to concede the election.........even today. 

For weeks after he was defeated, including the period when these protective actions by Milley took place, Trump spent most of his time trying to over turn the results of the most important event of our democracy............the presidential election. 

Wayne, the answer to your question is below. It was Trump, not Milley that blatantly violated the Constitution for his self serving interest that has done tremendous permanent damage to our country. Milley was following the Constitutions by  taking actions to protect the country from potential harm by the rogue, Constitution violating president. 

Ex-Trump adviser Bolton defends Milley: 'His patriotism is unquestioned'

https://thehill.com/policy/defense/572478-ex-trump-adviser-bolton-defends-milley-his-patriotism-is-unquestioned


Former Trump national security adviser John Bolton defended Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Gen. Mark Milley on Wednesday after a new book claimed Milley moved to limit Trump's ability to call for a military strike in the days after the Jan. 6 attack on the Capitol.

Bolton said Milley's “patriotism is unquestioned” and that he is a “staunch supporter of the Constitution and the rule of law."

“In the days after Donald Trump’s November 3, 2020, election defeat, I can only imagine the pressures he and others were under in fulfilling their Constitutional obligations,” Bolton wrote. “I have no doubt General Milley consulted widely with his colleagues on the National Security Council and others during this period.”

Bolton also said he would be “very surprised” if officials on the National Security Council were not aware of Milley’s actions, and if they did not agree with his efforts.

Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By WxFollower - Sept. 17, 2021, 10:13 a.m.
Like Reply

 MM is very much looking great in this thread from my perspective. I can’t add much to what he has been saying over and over so well. Plus he’s a better writer than me and I’ve been too busy to post political stuff. I know the feeling of having little support from a mainly one sided forum on the other side of an issue being discussed. It gets lonely out there. But rest assured, if this were a forum with a cross section of America posting, I’d expect more people supporting MM than opposing him in this thread, including a good number of Republicans and cons. This includes very smart cons like George Will. What Trump and subsequently his minions have attempted to do to this country and our democratic republic form of government and the damage he’s already done is terrifying to put it mildly. He’s a sick man who is in dire need of help. He should never hold a public position again. Why so many cons still support this looney tunes isn’t beyond explanation though. It is simple: tribalism and cognitive bias. Virtually nothing will change those cons’ thinking. That’s why political discussions are often a big turn off to me. I pray that the US can somehow recover from this but that will be very tough. It really is sickening.

PS: Wayne,

 It is great to see you posting again, buddy. I’ve been praying for you (along with my bro). We say prayers before dinner for individuals we know have health concerns. Sometimes we’ll mention individuals within our general prayers. On some days, I’ve mentioned you. I told my bro you’ve improved quite a bit. He has no clue who you are but he’s happy you’ve been improving.

By metmike - Sept. 17, 2021, 11:43 a.m.
Like Reply

Larry,

Thanks for a wonderful post from somebody that shows tremendous objectivity and compassion/caring for others.

The support for me is greatly appreciated(for the right reasons-it does get frustrating and emotionally draining to constantly face a figurative, never moving brick wall all day on Trump/COVID issues-so one tries to ignore emotions and never give up, based on ethics/commitments) but the support that you just gave Wayne/have been giving Wayne is..........beyond words, it's...........heavenly!

It's always great to hear somebody say "I'll be praying for you" but Wayne, man you just found out how what a genuine, carrying friend that Larry is deep down inside.

He and his brother(who never met you) have been praying for you before dinner.............all because of Larry's knowing you on this forum.

Larry, those words brought tears to my eyes and added special meaning for having this forum. I never thought of it as a source of generating prayers for posters that are seriously sick.

This just reinforces what I've always known about Larry(he lives with and takes care of his brother who has several medical issues).

Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By wglassfo - Sept. 17, 2021, 4:17 p.m.
Like Reply

MM

We know that Milley decided Trump's mental capacity was a danger to the country. Fact.. 

What I am trying to say is "if" the military decides you  have a dangerous president now or any time in the future, the problem has been solved.

 We need to look forward and think about the new power, the military has acquired.

Don't get hung up on what people say about Milley. Maybe Milley is a hero??

Don't get hung up on Trump. Maybe he wasn't mentally stable

The important thing to consider, going forward.

 You have a military that now has the option, by way of precedent, to make decisions with no civilian over sight. This is a major deviation from past customs and over sight responsibilities.

This precedent has never happened in the USA, to the best of my knowledge, but certainly in many other countries

What might the ramifications be, given time ???

We can not allow ourselves to view our world with rose tinted eye glasses. The military has gained considerable new powers. We now have a new play book of rules the military can follow by way of precedent

Those are the ramifications I speak about


By metmike - Sept. 17, 2021, 6:33 p.m.
Like Reply

Thanks Wayne!

I don't know how more clear that I can be. Repeating the unique circumstances and the response made by Milley is not going to make it more clear.

As I stated, this applies to this case only, which involved a total mental breakdown from a rogue president, that was in violation of the Constitution and trying to get those around him, including Pence and McConnell to participate in overturning the results of the election.

Does it set a precedent?

There have been 45 presidents. None of the other ones acted in any way, shape or form anything even slightly similar to how Trump did at any time in office. If the next 45 presidents, outside of Trump act that way, then this will never happen again. 

If, God forbid, another president turns into a self serving psychopath while he's if office, I would hope that those in power that clearly see it, act exactly like Milley did and in fact, I would bet they would do that if they are patriotic to our country and not controlled by the president him or herself.

I would bet that none of them will say "hey, let's use the Milley rule to weaken the powers of this guy/girl" and that in the future, people that don't like that president will say "hey, let's weaken the presidents powers, just like Milley did"

If you think that, then you are totally not understanding the off the charts threat that totally unhinged President Trump posed to this country during his last 2 months in office.

That, I believe is the entire problem here. People that don't understand/appreciate the true MASSIVE threat and now, the MASSIVE damage that Trump has caused to the US from his last 2 months in office.........that continues at this moment.

Let me spend a couple of pages reminding you because the pro Trump news sites are telling you the complete opposite and its total bs.

This discussion, in itself is evidence of the damage. We have dozens of internet and news sites supporting what Trump did and tens of millions of people going there getting brainwashed who believe it.

mcfarm brought up Charles Manson, stating  that he was treated better than Trump. Manson killed some people in cold blooded murder and deserves live in prison.......even the death penalty.

Trump had 100,000 times more power and his cult is 100,000 times bigger and although the deaths that resulted from those inspired by him were not cold blooded they are still dead people. And the damage that he caused to our country is 1 million times worse than anything that Manson did.

Outside of Manson's minuscule sized cult(which may still exist today even), the other 200 million or so  people that are familiar with him........ shun him, his behavior and any behavior that resembles this. The insiders left totally powerless and obliterated.

Outside of Trump's cult, it's the same way. He's shunned and actually very hated by many millions. Actually, many millions MORE since the election because of his actions.  I don't hate Trump but  I understand completely why people do.

But here's the huge problem.

There are still tens of millions inside his very active cult that believe in him and adore him. That, absurd as it sounds, still believe that the election was stolen from him and that his completely off the rails behavior after the election, as president was completely justified.

This is exactly why the damage that he has done to this country is millions of times greater than the damage that Manson did. 

There is no formula to equate political damage to actual human lives so don't get caught up trying to justify that Trump has done less damage. He has stolen a great deal of  intelligence from tens of millions of brainwashed people and ramped up intense hatred in a number greater than that who see who he is..............and pitted them against each other in the most divisive US since the Civil War. Worse in some ways.

He didn't cause all of it or even most of it but by himself, as a self serving individual, a true clinical psychopath by all authentic medical standards,  he contributed much more than any of the next 5 politicians combined.

 More than Obama? More than Clinton?

What, because you might hate Obama or Clinton and you support Trump, that means Obama/Clinton caused more hate?

That's exactly how people in his cult think. Not only are there several times more people that intensely hate him than both of them combined but he encouraged people to hate Obama and Clinton EVEN MORE.

He has people hating Mike Pence and McConnell and Cheney........from their own party for Pete's sakes, the numbers 2-3-4 at the top of the party. 

Only  the powerful leader of a cult could hypnotize the minds of people to the point of getting them to reject and hate all the top people supporting the ethics, truth and best interest of the party they align with.

This is exactly what cult leaders do to stay in control of their cult. Exactly man!

He gets the cult members to believe in only him and those high priests that support him and to reject those that don't support him. This comes straight from the cult leader 101 training guide (-:

Seriously though. I am not joking about EVERYTHING else.

Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By wglassfo - Sept. 17, 2021, 8:18 p.m.
Like Reply

This is what I understand from your last post

Trump has many millions of people who would/could cause great harm to this country

Face it Mike. There are millions of citizens in the USA and the millions that follow Trump is almost a drop in the bucket re: all the voters. This is an old white rich person who would never stand a chance of doing harm to the country. Why you are so fixated on an old white man who had his day at the bully bull pit and now that  is over. As you said your self, many folks don't like him so what is there to worry about??

. Others have said in public that all Trump patriots should be hunted down. What you do with a Trump patriot when you catch him/her or who is a patriot always puzzled me but there are just as many radicals that hate Trump, maybe more so this kind of thinking is not productive, except for head line seekers

No I don't read left or right wing blogs unless some thing pops up and it could be and probably is as much, left, right or center. I like to think I have my own thoughts even if every body else dis-agrees and trust me I have my fair share of those who dis-agree with me. But I still think for myself, right or wrong so don't put me in a box and claim you know what I read or think

Now my question

You are telling me this was a one off, never to be repeated again?? Okay ,I certainly hope you are correct

However; I assume you think if repeated and the military thinks the country is in danger because the civilians aren't doing a proper job or could do some thing dangerous: the military should take control and make the decision "for the good of the country"

That is a dangerous thought to even contemplate, much less hope the military would decide to save us from harm.

Just one quick question of many that pops into my thought process

What is the play book rule/precedent for the military to take action/control "for the good of the country"

Can you imagine the heated discussion that would generate

Oh I forgot, you think that discussion would never happen

I sure hope the generals don't think the southern border is a possible entry place for terrorist and decide they need to do some thing to stop the terrorist threat

Just some thoughts

By metmike - Sept. 17, 2021, 8:58 p.m.
Like Reply

"Face it Mike. There are millions of citizens in the USA and the millions that follow Trump is almost a drop in the bucket re: all the voters. This is an old white rich person who would never stand a chance of doing harm to the country. Why you are so fixated on an old white man who had his day at the bully bull pit and now that  is over. As you said your self, many folks don't like him so what is there to worry about??"

metmike: Wow Wayne, while you've been sick, you've been totally out of touch with reality man. I'll be more than happy to help you catch up if you like. 

These were articles from TODAYS news, 9-17-21

Emboldened Trump takes aim at GOP foes

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/572798-emboldened-trump-takes-aim-at-gop-foes

Donald Trump claimed his first scalp of the campaign cycle this week, forcing Rep. Anthony Gonzalez (Ohio) — a rising GOP star and one of 10 Republicans who voted to impeach the former president — into an early retirement.

An emboldened Trump will now focus his energy and attention on purging the remaining Republicans he views as disloyal, backing primary challengers to those on his impeachment hit list such as Reps. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), Adam Kinzinger (R-Ill.) and Jamie Herrera Beutler (R-Wash.). 

“1 down, 9 to go!” Trump said in a statement Friday."


Trump endorsements jolt GOP races

While the party is focused on the November 2022 general election, Trump’s gaze is fixed on the primary election season that begins next spring.

https://www.politico.com/news/2021/09/17/trump-endorsements-stoke-dissension-in-gop-ranks-512444

What’s remarkable about Trump’s picks isn’t just their breadth — he’s endorsed close to 40 candidates so far in 23 states — it’s their seemingly random quality. What’s even more unusual is that the political goals of the GOP’s de facto leader aren’t necessarily in sync with his own party — in some cases, they are starkly at odds.

By cutworm - Sept. 18, 2021, 5:11 a.m.
Like Reply

"You have a military that now has the option, by way of precedent, to make decisions with no civilian over sight. This is a major deviation from past customs and over sight responsibilities.

This precedent has never happened in the USA, to the best of my knowledge, but certainly in many other countries

What might the ramifications be, given time ???

We can not allow ourselves to view our world with rose tinted eye glasses. The military has gained considerable new powers. We now have a new play book of rules the military can follow by way of precedent

Those are the ramifications I speak about"

well said Wayne

25th amendment section 4

Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office

This was the what the general should have done, after all he took an oath to defend the constitution.

If history is any indicator the general has taken us down a very dangerous path.

By mcfarm - Sept. 18, 2021, 7:48 a.m.
Like Reply

thanks Cutworm. I have been beating my brains out this last week trying to get the people here to trust the constitution. That is really the only glue we can trust. Put your faith in someone as silly as Milley and he will make a fool out you pretty damn quick. To the guys here, also realize Milley and company were right in the middle of the huge idiotic plan in Afghan and then topped it by killing 7 children and 3 innocent adults in a drone attack and tried to make the fake claim that those were some of the people responsible killing 13 of our own. No guys. Biden, Milley and company are responsible and no one else.

By metmike - Sept. 18, 2021, 10:52 a.m.
Like Reply

Thanks cutworm,

You just gave us the Constitutional  steps needed to remove Trump from office. Is this what Milley did or wanted to do?

This has ZERO to do with that.

He had a conversation/dialogue with a person in China,  well within his job description/responsibility, using well defined channels to maintain peaceful relations with them and other countries and after discussing it with other Constitutional authorized individuals in Trumps administration. 

Are politicians and people other than the president, no longer allowed to communicate to politicians and people in any other country???

Did he tell them our president is not capable of making decisions? Did he say anything derogatory about Trump? Did he reveal any classified information?

Was the US planning on a secret/surprise attack on China and he gave it away?

His message was actually 100% consistent with communicating the message of 99% of what Americans, including all of our elected officials want(no war with China) and you guys have absurdly, twisted it like a pretzel into an attack on him because your far right sources have convinced you that it was an attack on Trump. 

This message was in fact, NOT Milley's message but the message of Trumps own administration, consisting of high level Pentagon officials.

You are getting taken on this one by your far right sources. 

If Milley was charged with a crime and you were an attorney with this information, I would actually consider hiring you to testify for Miley's defense. But your Trump defending brains are unable to see objective realities..........only what you think is something that might defend Trump............who of course never did anything wrong and was not in violation of the Constitution.


By metmike - Sept. 18, 2021, 11:14 a.m.
Like Reply

Retired general defends Mark Milley's calls to China on Fox News: 'Being sensationalized'

https://www.yahoo.com/now/retired-general-defends-mark-milleys-calls-china-fox-news-being-sensationalized-081219071.html

“Gen. Milley’s making a phone call to provide reassurances, which is his job,” Keane said. “I mean, he's executing his responsibility and he’s doing it in concert with his own advisers and then sharing that with the interagency.”

Keane also said that the president not being briefed on the calls was nothing unusual, and believes the whole story is being overblown.

“I don’t see anything that is undermining the civilian control of the military,” Keane said. “If you took the facts, that are, I think, being sensationalized in this report, that would be an issue, as you (McCallum) just regurgitated here. But that is not what the Pentagon is reporting. It seems to be pretty much in sync with what we're used to seeing.”

One of the points of outrage among some is the report that Milley made these calls in secret, with some critics believing he was undermining Trump, as has been the message in some segments on Fox News’s primetime shows. But Fox’s own Jennifer Griffin reported on Wednesday that the calls were in fact not secret, and that they were coordinated with multiple high-level Pentagon officials. It was even reported that Trump’s Secretary of Defense Mark Esper took the lead in the first call.

Keane believes that once the facts come out, they will be much less salacious than the stories being circulated right now."

Keane also responded to some right-wing voices demanding that the call transcripts be released.

“I don’t think we should make it a habit to [be] releasing transcripts. I mean, just think about this. Let’s use some common sense here,” Keane said. “Milley is developing a relationship with an adversarial counterpart, and if we start releasing transcripts of those conversations, that’s just going to blow up the relationship.”

metmike: That's so ironic. Milley did NOT reveal any classified information to the Chinese, but the republicans who are attacking him, want to reveal classified information to the Chinese to try to get him on doing something that wasn't wrong. 

The rational here is so off the charts absurd and political............and all to defend a person that was in the process of blatantly violating the Constitution at the time in an unprecedented manner in the 231 years since the Constitution was ratified.

But thank you very much for allowing us to see inside the current thought processes of Trump and far right media sources captured brains.

I'm always hopeful but still realistic that your positions will  change towards the objective reality on this or anything else regarding Trump. 

By mcfarm - Sept. 18, 2021, 4:12 p.m.
Like Reply

we don't have to guess what Milley said. There are transcripts and recordings Stop all the nonsense about what he said or did not say and release it all......I got some money to bet that this never ever happens....well maybe after we all are dead.If we ever see any sunlight on the papers they will be redacted so much they will be trash.

By metmike - Sept. 18, 2021, 4:54 p.m.
Like Reply

We don't need transcripts and recordings to see what Trump did after he lost the election. The world witnessed it in ugly, Constitution/democracy busting  real time. In all of its fraudulent, riot/Insurrection inspiring glory.  

Somehow, that reality will never register in your brain mcfarm but instead, you go after anybody that did anything perceived as harm to poor Donald Trump, who is being unfairly attacked once again by the evil empire of Trump haters. 

How did I somehow jump ship from to the side of the Trump traitors mcfarm?

How about ethics/integrity and most important..........objectivity to see truths outside of partisan politics. 

You guys just keep repeating the same rhetoric. If I had one which here, it would be for my far right friends to be able to see the objective truths for just one day.

I'm actually on your side but you just don't appreciate it. I'm your friend not your adversary. 

Maybe, at some point soon I will give up trying to help my friends being targeted with propaganda and having their intelligence stolen. ..........but make no mistake YOU are being targeted and USED mcfarm and I don't like them doing it to you one bit.

I think that you are a patriotic American that deserves much better respect and treatment than this. 

You have allegiance to Trump but you saw what he did with Pence, McConnell, Chaney and others when they stopped being his door mats. 

Trump doesn't care about the party or the country or people like you. He will beg, borrow, cheat, brainwash and violate the Constitution and use every patriotic American that he can in order to get what he wants for his self serving interests.......actually he's been very successful at it and being rewarded by many tens of millions of patriotic Americans that worship him.........so why wouldn't he continue?


Did you understand/comprehend the profound meaning of any of that mcfarm or was the voice inside your head telling you to only  believe Donald Trump crushing anything that contradicts it?

By mcfarm - Sept. 18, 2021, 6:17 p.m.
Like Reply

I now think Trump is living inside your head. He is gone. Yes we can recover. This thread is about Milley and what he did. Just relase the tapes and we are done.

By metmike - Sept. 18, 2021, 7:37 p.m.
Like Reply

"I now think Trump is living inside your head."

Trump is controlling metmike.........got it mcfarm. 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/74938/#75051

Re: Milley ??
0 likes
By wglassfo - Sept. 19, 2021, 12:25 a.m.
Like Reply

Hi Larry

Many thanks for your prayers and thoughts

Proper words fail me to describe my feelings

 Here is hoping you and your loved one's have some body looking over you

Tks Larry 


By metmike - Sept. 19, 2021, 12:55 a.m.
Like Reply

I'm glad that you saw this Wayne!

By WxFollower - Sept. 19, 2021, 3:47 p.m.
Like Reply

Wayne,

 You're welcome. We hope and pray that you are able to continue improving. 

By mcfarm - Sept. 21, 2021, 8:16 a.m.
Like Reply

watched a speech by Retired Col Douglas McGregor the other  nite. He was quite direct and critical of the mess Obama and biden have made of out armed forces. Says that at the height of WW 11 we exactly [7] 4 stars in charge of over 3 million enlisted. Guess what we have today? 43 four stars in charge of a little over 1 million. He was quite pointed about Milley and several others {our new defense sec} and their approach to leadership, what they did and did not do on the job, this new CRT crap being pushed, the entire mess of a withdrawl from Afghan, the leaving of Americans and billions of equip. Really seems tp pull no punches and what our armed forces used to be. Says what we have is just more bureaucracy just like big gov, big schools systems. In other words another mess from big gov.

By metmike - Sept. 21, 2021, 10:02 p.m.
Like Reply

Thanks mcfarm!

Do you have a link to that speech or info?