Extremely articulate British reporter thrashing all the arguments against Israel.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZcNEnjVa4E&ab_channel=SkyNewsAustralia
It's NOT 30,000 Hamas fighters and 2 million innocents.
The population in Gaza was gleefully kicking and spitting on a Jewish corpse being dragged through the streets of Gaza. They celebrated on 9-11 too.
The logic of proportionality is for Israel to allow Hamas to continue their quest of killing all the Jews.
Egypt could solve this problem tomorrow if they allowed Gazans refuge. They control the border in the south and it is closed.
No country in the world sitting in judgment of Israel would do less and most would do more.
I watched two documentaries on Gaza,one made three years ago and one made 15 years ago,same story,same plot,same insanity,different government actors. I have no comment or answer for the insanity over there
Thanks a million, joj!
Mike's response is right on.
joj,
I'm so glad that you started this new thread because it fits in perfectly with what I was going to add at the bottom of another long thread this morning.
I'm guessing that you're aware of the thread on this guy from cutworm and didn't like that discussion, and so started a new one with the exact same video but only a part of it.
Douglas Murray vs Piers Morgan at Israel- Gaza Border
9 responses |
Started by cutworm - Nov. 9, 2023, 8:22 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100452/
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To be clear, I LIKE IT a great deal when people start new threads like this and will always use THEIR NEW THREAD as the one to replace old threads, especially when the old threads were started by me (in this case it was started by cutworm with the same video).
You can see my extensive response, analyzing the racist/Arab hater in the thread above and I have nothing to add. on him. Just to repeat, his response to Piers when asking about the children in Gaza being killed was "they are having a population boom"
What I would like to address is what I was already going to post on, that Mike nailed exactly.
I watched a late night repeat of "The Five" on Fox last night which had me seriously reminded of my previous position, that I thought about all night/early morning. One that, as I told you I understand completely and is expressed by this guy, you, cutworm,. The Five, Fox and millions of Americans, especially Rs and Christians.
I totally understand and mean that sincerely why you have this position. The Five, spent the entire hour telling us about certain elements of this situation. October 7th was the biggest item. This is also what I thought about more last night too. Although I spend more time discussing current and future events vs looking back, what Hamas did is extremely disturbing and upsetting to me personally. I totally sympathize with the rage and desire for revenge and justification for the collective punishment against 2+ million people in Gaza.
However, where we part ways, is after that because I can now separate my current self from my old Christian indoctrinated self in order to see Palestinians as human beings, not just millions of dehumanized, evil units hell bent on wiping out Israel ASAP.
This reporter clearly feels like my old self and mimics "The Five" from last night exactly.
I knew this already but Mike's post expresses it again. There is no solution. Each side had already decided before these events, how it was going to interpret everything from beginning to end.
The same exact scenario's the past month are being interpreted completely different by both diametrically opposed sides to bolster their case to increase what they are convinced is justified to do the complete opposite of what the other side is 100% convinced is justified.
Both sides are completely talking past and over each other and only looking at new information to bolster their position and reject the other side. That's why Mike is exactly right.
I have already stated this numerous times but after a month of this, it just keeps getting more and more clear where this is going and again, this is what saddens me the most.
I know you disagree with this on this next point( consider it to be a flawed Western view) and I beckon you to reconsider based on the ongoing reality.
There has never been an event like this in the past with the same amount of attention because of the advanced technology which delivers it vividly around the world to our eyes and brains all day long. Along with that, social and professional media giving their 1 sided, extraordinarily strong and emotional viewpoints. People are only going to the sites reinforcing what they think. This is profoundly amplifying the impact in a way that has never happened in our history.
You are completely overlooking this and it's been displayed in the real world by the unprecedented huge protests supporting the Palestinians.
You will note that there is not an equal response around the world, with similar numbers supporting Israel.
I am so, SO against antisemitism in every shape or form, so please don't think, like most who disagree with this observation that I'm pro Hamas/Iran and anti Israel.
I remain pro Israel and pro...........the reality based on observations/reactions.
This is the stone cold truth:
There are around 20 millions Jews in the world and 2 billion Muslims. That means for every Jew, there are 100 Muslims.
In the US, we have tens of millions, of especially hard core Christians that believe the Jews are descendants of God's chosen people that also side with Israel, no matter what Israel does.
Regardless, Israel and the United States combined represent less than 5% of the global population. Less than 400 million compared 8 billion. That's a 20 to 1 ratio.
One only needs to read the news to see the outrage being expressed towards Israel right now. The Five, last night portrayed it as if its just ignorant people that have no understanding of the situation and all of them being younger, college kids that think its fun and cool to be part of a protest. Then, they contradicted themselves when they claimed those same protesters were doing it because they were intentionally pro Hamas/Iran and anti Israel. And that college and professors were indoctrinating them to hate Jews.
Regardless of how The Five, you or anybody else want to characterize it the fact is that IT EXISTS!
Fully recognizing this reality, is what saddens me the most as somebody that is PRO Israel. Ask youself, what was the global view towards Israel at these 3 times frame?
October 6, 2023?
October 8, 2023?
November 11, 2023?
Regardless of your side, everybody should agree on this:
October 6, 2023? Starting point/baseline
October 8, 2023? Baseline ++++Empathy for Israel/Jews --support for Muslims/Palestinians
November 11, 2023? Baseline ++Empathy for Israel/Jews +++++++Support for Gaza/Palestinians ++++++Outrage for Israel/Jews
Israel's actions the past month, even if you support/justify them have resulted in the above. My +, - ratings are not scientific.
You are good at following charts/trends that depict anything we want to analyze in order to predict. In markets/realms with the exact same, unchanging fundamentals at play in a strong up/down trend, would you not expect that trend to continue?
In this case, the trend is NOT the friend of Israel/Jewish interests.
Especially since they and their supporters, like metmike are such a small minority in the world.
I support Israel, the country and the Jewish people's right to exist and continue to admire the attitudes and accomplishments of Jewish people but absolutely disagree with their current actions and especially with the people making decisions for Israel because.
1. They are violating the human rights of the 2+ million innocent people in Gaza in a monstrous way. They also created this mess, as Mike also alluded to based on a long building dysfunctional dynamic. Asking for a solution NOW, is like asking an armchair quarterback what they would do to win, in the 4th quarter with their team behind 49-14. By then, the game has been lost! They need to start a new game is what I would say, with new, BETTER players for Israel is what I would say.
2. Even if I thought it was completely justified, they are, sadly sealing their fate based on the factual reasoning above.
I didn't see the post by cutworm. Apologies...
"They are violating the 2+ million innocent people in Gaza in a monsterous way."
I provided "authentic facts" that the statement above is false. Hamas has brainwashed a generation of children to serve Allah by killing Jews. The Gazans that were spitting on the Jewish corpse that was raped and dragged through the streets are hardly innocent. There were Palestinians cheering the 3000 US lives lost on 9-11. Are they innocent?
As for the ratio of those against Israel. What exactly does that have to do with Israel's security? Is this a popularity contest? ..... Well, the Muslims voted that Israel shouldn't exist so I guess that's the winning vote?
I've given up trying to get a response from you for direct questions. I ask you what you would do to defend your children if those trying to kill them were hiding behind their children. And you respond by talking about 2 million innocent Palestinians.
By the way, what about Egypt? They are keeping Palestinians from getting into Egypt. Israel does not control that border, which I suspect, is one of the ways weapons are smuggled into Gaza.
Stop watching Fox News. It's pure fiction. It has been so for decades.
mtp is right. It is insanity. And right now, it is war. He, and anyone who chooses, can walk away saying that they don't have a dog in this fight. I expect I might be inclined to do the same if I were unattached.
If Israel were to commit genocide I would condemn them in a full-throated manner. But until then I'm taking sides in this war. I guess that makes me a war criminal too.
Thanks, joj
I read you loud and clear.
No need to apologize on the other thread because it resulted in this new discussion, started by you without having to scroll thru a bunch of previous posts.
Its so crystal clear that both sides only consider positions that line up with their view as acceptable and what makes it impossible to agree on anything.
Trying to discredit my previous points as a popularity contest is just denial of the same thing that I have tried endlessly to get you to open your mind to, which is the overwhelming response of the world, NOT a popularity contest.
You mischaracterized several of my previous responses and I’m not going be dragged down into a toxic conversation.
I‘ll just repeat again, that I had your exact position for 60 years and totally understand the outrage.
For me, Israels response and an open minded, honest study of the history has made me aware of the Palestinian position.
However, both of us want the same, exact thing.
For a prosperous and respected Israel in a world that minimizes the hate crimes associated with antisemitism.
I know that you want this.
I‘m just trying to get you to see that it’s going fast and hard in the exact opposite direction and you keep insisting that the rest of the world causing it is wrong, with the Israel is always right mentality.
Israels future is bleak if they and their defenders can’t acknowledge the reality of the world which will also inspire a 10 fold increase in the number of people similar to those that committed the horrific atrocities in Israel on Oct. 7.
Those numbers are not popularity numbers. Those are the numbers that define how many potential people the evil interests of the other side has to recruit to destroy Israel.
what’s happening right now in Gaza has been the biggest gift to them for recruitment In history.
Again, I’m totally on your side and it greatly saddens me to know and share this.
You seem pretty convinced that most people in Gaza hated Israel.
This is no reason for collective punishment and horrible war crimes to 2 million people, half that are children.
Whatever the number that hated Israel before, IN GAZA, do think it’s less or more, here on November 11? If you lived in Gaza, why WOULDN'T you hate Israel right now?
How about in the world?
Thats why I implore you to look around at the real world and not just tune into narratives/sources that support what you want to believe.
Please don't continue to shoot the messenger for this post.
I have to remind folks in every thread, maybe every post that I have been unwavering pro Israel for 60 years and explained this and my admiration for Jews.
The only thing that has changed is my ability to see the other side's point AND my ability to see the source of the massive escalation in antisemitism.
In today's world, the ability to see the points of a side that you disagree with has been completely lost by most people. Not everyone though. And not everyone here either.
I'm bringing this below to everyone's attention because its something that I stand strongly against with every cell in my body! I don't relish having to do it. This is grossly offensive to my personal ethical belief system.
I think exposing it is the best way to take steps to properly understand and address it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-67281042
Officials have long warned about the rise of antisemitism in the United States.
November 2, 2023, 4:44 PM
https://abcnews.go.com/US/antisemitism-rise-us-amid-ongoing-israel-hamas-war/story?id=104485604
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This is an example of some of the worst journalism I ever remember reading. In November 2023, with the obvious spike in antisemitism from what's going on in Gaza, they devote exactly 1 sentence to that.
Instead they make most of the article about blaming Trump for the rise in antisemitism!
How ironic and contradictory to their theory that the far right and Fox news, that are almost all Trump supporters, are the most loyal, outspoken pro Israel sources in this country outside of the actual Jews!!
These people worship Trump and what he stands for.
Because White Nationalists also believe in many of the same things doesn't mean that 1 of them is Antisemitism.
People reading this article and believing that false narrative just got dumber.
i can't get you to answer my questions. I give up. You get the last word.
There are dozens of different relationships that involve humans, many are very complicated.
For many of them, there are several principles that can tell us a lot, including the direction they will head.
The most noteworthy relationship for humanity is that of marriage. Life long commitments and the majority of new life is based on this.
Unconditional love from at least 1 partner defines the best marriages. It's ideal for both partners to feel this way but like everything human, people have different capabilities to love, to forgive and experience other emotions.
Most people have several flaws. In a marriage, those flaws can contribute negatively to the success. I grew up with an enormously flawed mother and the worst wife that any man would have wished for. She lost both parents early in childhood and was raised by older siblings that were, themselves hurting and struggling and not parents.
But she married the most gifted man that I've known personally. Gifted at giving unconditional love, gifted at commitment and gifted at forgiving and not holding grudges and never complaining or feeling sorry for himself. Always moving forward and teaching those principles to his 6 children that he lived for.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/45623/#45730
And after 3 decades of mom being subjected to this...........she changed. She stopped the excessive drinking and suicide attempts because all her bad memories in the past, were replaced by good memories from her husband. Those that say marriage is a 50-50 proposition are wrong. Rarely do both partners have exactly the same ability for doing anything, including contributing to the marriage. I am here to tell you that its possible for 1 person to give 90 and the other 10 and it still adds up to 100%!
This is absolutely not condoning certain kinds of abuse, especially a physically superior man hurting his wife. This abuse should never be tolerated.
The bottom line is that one person will be more blessed than the other with what they can contribute and one person will have the potential to wreck the marriage more.
A strong man can wreck a marriage, for instance if he uses that to hurt his physically weaker wife.
There are other relationships that follow a similar principle defined by MLK many times. This is one of his best quotes:
This principle also applies to different groups and different countries, where it's not necessarily LOVE for each other which is needed but the ABSENCE OF HATE.
Hate is the great emotion amplifier. It provides the inspiration for hate groups, hate acts and hate based retaliations. The reason that its such a great amplifier is that hate has an unlimited positive feedback loop.
If I or a group do something mean to you or your group, the immediate response is to generate a spike in your hatred for me and the normal human response is a knee jerk desire and justification to hurt the entity that just hurt them.
With emotions, people don't analyze what caused this hate act or whether they actually had a great deal to do with causing it. We want immediate justice and its justice ON OUR TERMS if we are the ones with the most control in the relationship.
In the relationship between Palestinians and Israel, one side has almost all the power and control. So when the weaker side lashes out from being abused with a heinous, unjustified crime, the stronger side is the biased judge and executioner that sentences the residents of Gaza that they intensely hate to atrocities a couple of orders of magnitude worse than the original crime.
This is a prime example of hate being the great amplifier. There have been incidents between these 2 groups going back decades that focus on hate. Each incident, results in a response that just makes the other side hate them even more and it provides even GREATER inspiration to generate punishment/retribution.
Israel, for instance wants to sell the idea that the hate group Hamas, evolved in a vacuum and had nothing to do with decades of their abuse and hatred of Palestinians. Anybody that really believes that Israel doesn't hate Palestinians and abuses them because of it is delusional.
That doesn't JUSTIFY what Hamas did one bit. But it does EXPLAIN it entirely.
Now, Israel is way OVER reacting because of that hatred for the innocent people in Gaza and nobody can stop them.
By no coincidence, hate, the GREAT MULTIPLIER with positive reinforcement is generating a massive response by the world to Israels uncontrolled despicable treatment to innocent people because of THEIR hatred of the people of Gaza.
The increasing hate for Israel and Jewish people that has resulted in a huge increase in hate crimes/antisemitism is NEVER justified under any circumstances. Nor the increase in hate crimes against Muslims. NEVER!
However, we can see the reason for it.
Admitting and understanding the reason(s) is needed first, in order to make the smartest decisions to manage the hate. Doing things that increase hate, will only provide the other side with greater inspiration to hurt you.
When they outnumber you by 100 to 1, even though you may be much more powerful with military might that you abuse to increase the hate by imposing extreme retribution for their hate act, those numbers will inspire an amount of hatred that is many time greater than what existed because it WILL SPREAD insidiously to many of those that outnumber you 100 to 1. That will end up destroying you.
Here's the thing with many people. They like to pretend what they are experiencing is not hatred but is, instead justice. The 2 actually go hand in hand in a situation like Gaza. The more you hate somebody/entity the more extreme that you think the justice should be.
There couldn't be more evidence of that right now in the Middle East.
The hate feed back loop has been going on for decades in the Middle East and to expect me to have a magical solution is unreasonable and not an excuse to drown out the message.
My solution is for a replacement of the current government in Israel that has led to this and especially an entirely new way for this region that LIFTS UP Palestinians instead of severely suppressing and punishing them.
We spent 125 billion killing 500,000 people and destroying Ukraine for nothing but counterproductive consequences to the world.
I would suggest that the next 125 billion investment in foreign aid go to lifting up Palestinians so they have good reasons to live for (60% unemployment) instead of killing their oppressors that are subjecting all 2+ million to a lengthy humanitarian crisis/war atrocity.........INTENTIONALLY with collective punishment.
At the end of this war, there will be several times more people that want to kill Jews than before it. It's not right and I am trying to speak out against this happening but thats the authentic, fact based truth based on the past and human behavior.
My solution has a snowballs chance in hell (and this is hell on earth right now) because Israel hates Palestinians too much and have all the power. But that's what I have been saying that I would do(despite brains here that don't remember things that they don't want to remember).
i can't get you to answer my questions. I give up. You get the last word.
joj,
I've answered all your questions on this topic more than once. You just don't like the answers or are unable to recognize them because you are so blinded by bias, assumptions and hatred.
You want me to say (AGAIN) that I would want to blow Gaza in to Smithereens if they did this to my family and I've already told you umpteen times that I understand this line of thinking completely but you keep pretending that you didn't read it.
I will repeat for the umpteenth time that I totally understand why you feel that way. Not only did I feel the same way for almost my entire life but you have a MUCH greater reason to feel that way because:
1. You are Jewish
2. You have family living in Israel
Just because Israel feels that way doesn't mean what they are doing is justified and with certainty, it's counterproductive and making it MUCH harder to provide a real solution(which I also described for around the 5th time the last month.
https://abcnews.go.com/US/antisemitism-rise-us-amid-ongoing-israel-hamas-war/story?id=104485604
I have to call out this source again. Previously mentioned at the hate thread.
The entire objective of this forked keyboard journalist is to place the blame for racist hate and antisemitism on Donald Trump and far right groups.
However not one time, do they mention the source of the biggest increase in hate crimes targeting Jews, over the past month.
College campuses around the country!
This is quintessential "yellow journalism" something that actually defines many media sources on both sides today:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100336/#100386
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But this is nothing new at some college campuses
Published: 01.01.1997
https://www.adl.org/resources/report/schooled-hate-anti-semitism-campus
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https://www.adl.org/resources/report/adl-hillel-campus-antisemitism-survey-2021
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We know with certainty, that most college students DON'T vote Trump and many in this group of Jew haters are far LEFT NOT far right.
Most on the far right, including Fox news are the strongest Israel supporters in this country!
Thank you for answering my question. ...."I would want to blow Gaza into Smithereens if they did this to my family."
Would it be fair for me to take this answer as you would feel justified in taking out the military target of those attacking your children even at the risk of your enemies' children?
Then you go on to say: "Just because Israel feels that way doesn't mean what they are doing is justified".
So you are justified to protect your children but Israel is not. Interesting.
While I agree that it may not be in Israel's best interest to use force, I am baffled by anyone, even 95% of the world, who believes that they have no justification.
Thanks joj,
I have repeated a dozen times, including from the get go and still hold the same position that I completely understand the sincere use of justification for why Israel is enraged and doing what they are doing. That was actually what I would have supported just over a month ago BEFORE using observations since Oct. 7 and BEFORE learning the history.
Where we part ways is about whether using that enraged justification to do something 10 times worse to innocent people, that guarantees inspiration to 10 times more people to do this..........is a smart idea.
I contend, based on the VAST majority of the world's even MORE justified profound reaction, including the United Nations, that collective punishment using war crimes(based on Israels subjective justification) is a really, REALLY bad idea.
Even if I still had your position to an extreme and believed we should obliterate Gaza and blow away every last person there because its the only way to wipe out these people that want to wipe out Israel, I would be extremely cognizant of the massive blowback from doing it and that there are 1,000 times more Muslims in the world than just the 2 million living in Gaza. 2 billion Muslims!
For every innocent person being killed in Gaza, Israel is inspiring 1,000 more to hate Israel or hate Israel even more. Many of them are children growing up to hate Israel. Many of them will use that hate for actions when they are older.
Maybe Israel looks at those children they’re killing in Gaza as future terrorists that will end up trying to wipe out Israel. Their actions the past month, ensure that the children NOT killed in this war, will intensely hate Israel for the rest of their lives and represent a number MUCH GREATER than the current Hamas to be recruited to do the work of Hamas For the next generation.
You want to shrug that off as "Western thinking"
No, it's understanding the minds of human beings and having open eyes not clouded by interpretations that only justify what Israels is doing, without actually dialing in anything else, including profound blowback consequences that are inevitable.
I will repeat again, that some entity needs to step in and lift the Palestinians up ASAP and Israel needs to be part of the process.
These people have nothing.
People with nothing, are risking nothing when you recruit them to give up their lives for something for a payoff MUCH bigger, that you mentioned.
Taking out Israel for their cause has a massive payoff, that sends some of them straight to the promised land in the next world.
The only way to counter that is to give them much more to live for in THIS WORLD and for them to know that the people helping them to achieve that ARE NOT THEIR ENEMY.
That will likely never happen but I'm telling you what the only solution is to this complex, decades long and worsening problem.
What I hope for is an Israel in peace with it's neighbors and a world that feels the same way about Jews that I do. Admiration and fondness.
To accomplish that, we need to first understand why that isn't the case today!
On a solution to this problem.
My solution will never happen because there is too much indoctrinated hate on both sides and really bad leadership on both sides.
However, the 8 billion people on this planet want many of the same things and respond to similar stimuli, especially involving relationships with other humans.
1. When people think that you are trying to hurt them or suppress them, they will always dislike you. The range of that feeling can be from being annoyed by you to wanting to kill you.
2. When people think that you are trying to help them or lift them up they will always like you. That can range from not fully appreciating your generosity to it creating a lifelong friendship that results in a strong desire to GIVE BACK to the person that helped you.
The only way out of the Middle East hate quagmire is for Israel to change its image from the current #1 relationship to one that lines up more with #2.
You know it would work!
We also know it will never happen )-:
LOLOLOL "My fights were with idiots that had nothing to lose. "
MAYBE, THAT'S WHAT THEY THINK, TOO
WHAT FUNNNNNNNNNNNN
I decided to delete those other posts of mine that are not related to this topic. We're starting chess at 5 schools later this month and I'll be sharing this link below as well as other links here, especially weather forecasts for 600 parents and teachers on the email lists
It's best to post things that set a good example (-:
Chess videos/links 2023/24
5 responses |
Started by metmike - Nov. 12, 2023, 10:29 p.m.
Gaza City: Babies dying in hospital amid scenes of devastationhttps://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143497
“The world cannot stand silent while hospitals, which should be safe havens, are transformed into scenes of death, devastation and despair,” said WHO chief Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus, reiterating calls for an immediate stop to the fighting.
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GENEVA, Nov 10 (Reuters) - More than 100 United Nations employees have been killed since the Israel-Hamas war began in Gaza, the U.N. Palestinian refugee agency (UNRWA) said on Friday, making it the deadliest conflict ever for the U.N. in such a short period of time.
"They represent what is happening to the people of Gaza. They happen to work for the UN," said Juliette Touma, Director of Communications at UNRWA. "They and every other civilian in the Gaza Strip...should never have been killed."
U.N. staff around the world will observe a minute of silence and flags will fly at half mast on Monday, the global body said.
I continue to wish with all my heart that this was not the case but Israel has only itself to blame and this was very predictable and inevitable )-:
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https://english.news.cn/20231113/0d10f008530c4d31bcb8a610a4b4b73d/c.html
GAZA, Nov. 12 (Xinhua) -- The Palestinian death toll from Israeli strikes on the Gaza Strip has climbed to 11,180 since the conflict started on Oct. 7.
Out of the total deaths, 4,609 were children and 3,100 were women, with more than 28,000 others injured, said Ismail Al-Thawabteh, director of the Gaza government's media office, in a press conference at Shifa Medical Complex.
Al-Thawabteh added that 22 hospitals and 49 health centers have ceased operations in Gaza due to Israeli attacks and a shortage of fuel needed to operate power generators
Watched the first 40 minutes of Hannity tonight with Netanyaho on.
Wow. Pure propaganda. No wonder people that watch Fox for their main source on this will never know the truth.
Hamas must pay the price for what they did to Israel and that's all that matters.
No mention once of the incredible humanitarianism crisis of epic and unimaginable proportions. Anywhere that Hamas hides, the innocent people in those places must die too and it's Hamas's fault. Doesn't matter if it's hospitals or babies. That's the price for Israel to make Hamas pay.
After watching this, I refuse to hate Netanyaho or let it damage my respect for Jews that have nothing to do with these decisions by horrible leaders making these decisions.
Or for it to impact my personal relationships............even though its upsetting to observe and other people justifying despicable behavior are blind to the war atrocities and shutting down their empathy and blaming the rest of the world for having empathy. because THEY are unable to see clearly.
Fox viewers are getting an anti empathy, hate brainwash every evening on this but I refuse to allow them to control me and stir up hate because they do this.
Hate would absolutely be an acceptable and justifyable emotion for Hamas. which I feel but for Israel, I just feel extremely sad about the hate for them that they are generating in millions around the world. And the saddest part is that it's completely self inflicted and based on Netanyaho's arrogance and calloused seeking of revenge, with no regard for people in Gaza, that he clearly hates, it's impossible to feel sorry for the guy.
In the month following Hamas’s terror attack on Israel, antisemitic incidents in the U.S. increased by 316 percent compared to the same time period last year, according to preliminary data released today by ADL (the Anti-Defamation League).
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https://www.adl.org/stand-with-israel?utm_campaign=irshamatt2023&utm_medium=pr&utm_content=20231025
In a huge disconnect, many of the same people outraged over the antisemitism, also support Israels actions and thus, are unable to wrap their heads around the reason for the increase in antisemitism because they think:
1. That People protesting are wrong.They all support Hamas and hate Israel. Wrong! Many protestors just care about other human beings.
2. That People getting especially upset and venting at Jews are doing it with no reason, other than they have always hated Jews. Wrong again. There is NEVER, EVER a legit excuse to justify a hate crime. However, in this case, there is clearly a 1 to 1 correlation and REASON for the huge increase in antisemitism.
What Israel is doing is wrong. The vast majority of the world knows it and is outraged. When you unfairly target 2+ million innocent people with horrendous, collective punishment, day after day because you hate them and consider their human value to be nothing.......there is a 100% chance that you will cause people to hate you! Most likely many millions of people that didn't hate Jews and Israel before this.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100492/#100520
For the umpteenth +1 time. I understand the emotion of revenge and why Israel is using that feeling to justify their attacks. If somebody killed my daughter, I would want real bad to kill them. But we live in a civilized world.
And this so called justice has already killed/injured 20 times more people in Gaza than those in the horrific incident on Oct. 7.
And Israel has severely punished 1,000 times more innocent people and done 1,000 times more damage to Gaza.
Seriously, those real world stats have taken us a couple of orders of magnitude past justification. People still using that lame excuse look like they are completely lacking in critical thinking skills and/or motivated by the same thing that motivates Israel and/or they go to places like Fox and let themselves be brainwashed because ignorant bliss is better than the emotional pain of having to accept an inconvenient truth.
Turkey’s president calls Israel ‘terror state’ while US says it will not veto UN resolution calling for urgent humanitarian pause
Is this accurate? If so, Hamas has been storing ammunition and using the largest hospital for covert military operations. If so, what’s the best way to handle this?
The following, if true, shows IDF delivering medical supplies as they take over from Hamas in running things there:
Percentage of respondents who say US should support Israel drops ten points since October
https://responsiblestatecraft.org/public-supports-ceasefire-gaza/++++++++++++++++++++++++
On topics like this, polls are best at telling us how effective the U.S. propaganda bombarding us is, not what the right thing to do is.
Most people have lost their ability to think critically and and independently from their favorite sources that tell them what they want to read/hear by spinning the news.
Hannity tonight insisted that the IDF's escalating war crimes, including what they've done to hospitals, specifically with regards to today, at Gaza's biggest hospital is "Israel, liberating the people of Gaza from the control of Hamas"
If this is what a country does to liberate innocent people, I can't imagine what they would need to do for Hannity to call it hurting them.
Hamas, Palestinian health officials and medical workers have also vehemently denied Israel’s claims about Al-Shifa, and condemned Wednesday’s raid.
The director general of the Gaza health ministry, Dr. Medhat Abbas, told CNN that Gaza’s hospitals “are used to treat patients only” and are not being used “to hide anyone.”
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/15/middleeast/shifa-hospital-gaza-idf-intl/index.html
Political and Peacebuilding Affairs
https://dppa.un.org/en/updated-besieged-gaza-hospital-horror-continues-fuel-supplies-now-exhausted
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https://news.un.org/en/story/2023/11/1143482
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https://guide-humanitarian-law.org/content/article/3/proportionality/
The proportional nature of a reprisal in relation to the initial attack is the element that makes the distinction between a reprisal that is acceptable under the law of armed conflict and an act of revenge, which is always prohibited. Humanitarian law clearly establishes the responsibility of military commanders with regard to the respect for this principle.
The Statute of the International Criminal Court (ICC), adopted on 17 July 1998 and entered into force on 1 July 2002, also considers such acts as war crimes and includes them among the crimes over which it has jurisdiction. It adds to this definition the act of “intentionally launching an attack in the knowledge that such attack will cause incidental loss of life or injury to civilians or damage to civilian objects or widespread, long-term and severe damage to the natural environment which would be clearly excessive in relation to the concrete and direct overall military advantage anticipated” (Art. 8.2.b.iv of ICC Statute).
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Israel is in blatant violation of this international law X10!
https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/10/27/how-does-international-humanitarian-law-apply-israel-and-gaza
"As accusations mount, it is important to understand the legal definition of terms such as ‘war crimes’ and what they mean in law.
IHL, or the laws of war, has existed in some form for thousands of years, but the modern version is set out in the Geneva Conventions of 1949, alongside other treaties, and customary international law.
It binds states, including Israel, as well as non-state armed groups that are involved in conflict, including Hamas and Islamic Jihad, even though they cannot formally ratify the treaties.
It is important to say that the rules of law are non-reciprocal, meaning that they apply irrespective of what the other side has done. Violations - such as deliberately targeting civilians or imposing collective punishment - can never be justified by claiming that another party has committed violations, or that there are power imbalances or other injustices"
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I'm still wishing this wasn't so but inconvenient truths are still the authentic truth )-:
No mention of humanitarian aid you say. Well BN spent many minutes explaining how thw Israeli troops are being in food. water and medical aid. Imagine for a millisecond of Hamas doing anything like that. No they hide behind women and children and behead babies and hide under hospitals. And Israel has had enough. They will be dragged out if need be. But they will no longer be allowed. And the people of Gaza should be right there hand to hand to hand helping. Cowards if the do not as they helped install these animals in power. Negotiate? Please. Biden's pause? Please. More lib feel good talk that leads to more of the same. Weak, soft, meaningless words are a total sum of nothing, zero with more destruction after wards with a terrorists next attack. Damn MM what us there chant, from sea to river from hills to valley we will drive Israel until they are all dead. Did you not hear Bin Laden? Sound familiar?
"No mention of humanitarian aid you say. Well BN spent many minutes explaining how thw Israeli troops are being in food. water and medical aid."
mcfarm, I totally get why you think this because I watch many of the same sources that you do. It's Israel that won't let in sufficient water, food, fuel, medical supplies INTENTIONALLY CAUSING the catastrophe not the other way around.
But I also access other sources that tell us the truth in this case:
Since people have decided what they want to believe and go to the sources that tell them that, i get that nobody will pay attention to this. However, this place will never be an echo chamber on topics like this that have 2 sides.
I never pick a side or even know what side I'm going to be on. The authentic facts and truth does that for me.
Just to repeat, I've always been PRO Israel but that doesn't mean turning a blind eye to diabolical war atrocities/crimes.
https://www.oxfam.org/en/timeline-humanitarian-impact-gaza-blockade
https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/israel-hamas-war-humanitarian-crisis-gaza
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As I've state numerous times, the only solution to this would be for Israel to help lift up Palestinians(or the US do it and Israel backed off) and absolutely make it clear WITH ACTIONS that the US and Israel are doing this to help Palestinians.
This would help reverse decades of doing the exact opposite. Treating other people, different from you as human beings with value is paramount!
As mentioned before, when people have nothing, they have almost nothing to risk but destitute lives. When YOU are the reason for them to have nothing, they have extremely strong motivation to risk their nothing in order to seek their form of justice........revenge, which can be extraordinarily powerful as we saw on Oct. 7.
I condemn that horrific act and condemn all antisemitism and any hate crimes no matter what the circumstances are.
But I'm just clearly explaining the real world dynamics and what is needed to fix it.
What Israel has been doing for 5 weeks is the exact recipe to make it much worse at the greatest rate possible.
I have great deal of empathy for the Palestinians but also for Israel, knowing what's to come from immense blow back resulting from the biggest mistake in their history.
Larry,
I apologize for missing your post last night until just now. Been extremely busy with chess sign ups, which will continue.
Please see my response to Joj on another thread about this from earlier today:
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100571/#100620
Behaving properly in this case means NOT killing 12,000+ and injuring 25,000+ innocent people that you hate. It means NOT starving 2+ million innocent people(half being children-so even if you want to claim they hate you, doing this to their children is diabolical) NOT depriving them of water, NOT depriving them of fuel, electricity and medical care. NOT obliterating their homes/shelters. NOT bombing the heck out of them for 5 straight weeks. NOT violating the basic standards using the Statute of International Criminal Court and the Geneva Convention
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100492/#100611
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100492/#100612
Not completely ignoring the pleas of the United Nations and World Health Organization. Not setting a record for killing the most United Nations humanitarian aid workers in just 1 months time(100+)
joj, is that what you consider proper behavior?
Larry,
The IDF found Hamas weapons at a hospital and is delivering a small load of medical supplies with phot ops is supposed to negate the 10,000 times worse atrocities the past 5 weeks that we know with 100% certainty have been happening?
That would like having a 1 year drought with no rain, then it raining .40 inches and only wanting to use that isolated rain event to define the weather pattern this year, when the average rainfall should have been 40 inches so far.
The average number of supply trucks coming into Gaza were 400-500/day.
For a couple of weeks, that was cut to 0, now its still shy of whats needed and since they won't let fuel in, those deliveries were threatened. I don't time to check everything, every day. This was almost 2 weeks ago.
In total, 374 trucks of aid have entered Gaza since October 21, when Israel first began allowing the tightly controlled shipments, according to the Palestinian Red Crescent.
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That means they went almost a month allowing in a total of trucks that normally came in every day.
And we wonder why people claim that this is genocide. One can ask, what does genocide do that this isn't also doing? Actually, the way this thing has been going, that's what I'm starting to believe more and more BASED ON THE FACTS ONLY!
16 November 2023
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Based on continual observations, I'm changing my mind on this initial opinion which is still carrying some of my biased, indoctrinated belief that the Jews are the ancestors of God's chosen people.
God would never want other human beings to be treated this way.
Genocide
21 responses |
Started by joj - Nov. 5, 2023, 6:16 a.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100334/
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It couldn't be more and more clear that Israel hates Palestinians and is imposing collective punishment on 2+ million people, many that are children that are learning the true meaning of hate and vengeance from witnessing it.
They will never forget this lesson and will use it demonstrate to the teacher how well it was learned with paybacks.
Again, I have been strongly pro Israel my entire life with great admiration and appreciation for the Jewish people.
Residents of Khan Younis have received leaflets telling them to move farther south, but few safe options exist.
https://www.aljazeera.com/tag/gaza/
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joj seems to think that these leaflets are some sort of indicator that Israel cares about these people. Telling them they are about to be obliterated but not providing them with a safe place, in my book is just increasing the emotional trauma of these events and to these people.
This is nuts, man!!!
How long will it go on?
Israel-Hamas War Day 41 |
Heres an example of the sad yellow journalism coming from Fox. They summarize only 1 key event causing all this(Oct. 7):
Published
The People’s Forum has played a role in organizing several pro-Palestine protests since Hamas’ attack on Oct. 7 in which the terror group’s members killed at least 1,200 Israelis and took over 200 hostages from Southern Israel into Gaza.
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Not 1 word on the diabolical war crimes committed by Israel on Gaza every day since then, which was over a month ago. They completely censored the facts/truth and only push blatantly biased, extreme propaganda.
I totally get why our far right posters here believe what they do. This is a fair representation of the stuff coming from Fox since Oct. 7.
I will continue to STRONGLY condemn antisemitism and hate crimes but you folks pretending what Israel is doing is justified and not horrible atrocities on 2 million people should know that this is the entire reason for the huge uptick in the antisemitism.
100% behind the increase the past month. Not for deep rooted antisemitism that existed BEFORE then but entirely for the increase in it since Oct. 7.
People that didn't hate Jews before, hate them now because of what Israel is doing to Gaza.
I sooo wish it were not so and am sorry to my Jewish friends and all the wonderful Jewish people that are suffering the consequences. Antisemitism should be punished.
Even better, if Israel wasn't imposing what sure as heck can be interpreted as genocide on the people living in Gaza.
I'll let additional facts continue to determine my view on that. Again, I have a pro Israel bias and this is personally painful to follow and I can only imagine how horrible it must be for the innocent Jewish communities (and our posters here) .
https://www.newsweek.com/poll-american-support-israel-hamas-conflict-ceasefire-1844276#
A Reuters/Ipsos survey, conducted between November 13-14, found that just under a third (32 percent) of Americans say that the U.S. should continue to back Israel in the conflict, a nine-point drop from the 41 percent who said the country should support its close ally in mid-October
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It's only going to get worse and I hate stating that )-:
However, the extremes will dig in at this point and never change their minds thanks to sources like Fox censoring the truth from the far right.
What WILL happen is that people outraged about this will become more and MORE outraged the longer that it goes on. 100% chance of that unless Israel does something substantive to deescalate. Israel's actions hold the key to where we go from here, although there is waaaay too much water under the dam to UNsee and UNknow what just happened.
This has provided massive fuel for little revenge and hate fires burning in the hearts of millions of Muslims and many others that have empathy for the people in Gaza.
Israel and the United States will be targets for many years down the road. Again, there are 2 Billion Muslims in the world and 20 million Jews(depending on the method of counting)
Why would our Jewish friends posting here and elsewhere with strong pro Israel sentiments not assume that Muslims feel the exact same way about whats happening to their people?
They do! Only its a couple of orders of magnitude worse and instead of it being done and over and then an attempt to heal from it.......every day dumps a bit more fuel on the fire of hate in their heart.
There are 100 Muslims for every Jew in the world. The math and what it means to the future is undeniable. I've always thought that Israel was extremely smart but their arrogance and hate/need for revenge exceeded their ability to use good judgement and greatly exceeded what little value they put on the lives of Palestinians.
Couldn't be more clear to people with their eyes open. That sort of thing usually can't be fixed. You have ethical standards when dealing with other human beings..........or you don't. That especially applies to how you treat people less fortunate than you.
As we've seen, Hamas is an example of 0 ethical standards for treating people MORE fortunate than them, but then, we have a different dynamic modulating the frame of mind as they have nothing to lose.
Israel has everything to lose and they just lost support and credibility in almost every country of the world......except maybe in Israel.
Please don't shoot the messenger. I dislike my message a great deal.
If you watch Fox, which is censoring everything that makes Israel look bad(which is most of it) than you have no idea why the rest of the world is acting this way.
https://thehill.com/homenews/media/4299835-fox-news-launches-vertical-focusing-on-antisemitism/
A recent New York Times report found an increasing number of Jewish viewers were turning to Fox, the top-watched cable news channel, for its coverage of the war, with some citing a feeling of alienation by other outlets on the issue.
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Quintessential example of how people go to echo chambers and places that tell them what they want to hear and read.
If I would have set up an experiment to demonstrate how people will tune into news sources based on the source telling them the news that they want to hear rather than getting the other side......it couldn't have been better designed.
https://news.yahoo.com/jewish-viewers-refuge-fox-news-174918953.html
"he found Fox’s reporting and commentary on Israel’s military campaign in the Gaza Strip “less antagonistic for sure” than that of other news organizations. “You don’t feel as attacked,” Abramson said."
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I watch Fox too but he described it incorrectly. Fox censors almost 100% of anything that Israel does wrong including every iota of their war crimes/blatant violations against 2 million innocent human beings that they hate, the majority being women and children. I believe the perpetrators on Oct. 7 and most of Hamas are men. That's not attacking or antagonistic, that's called TELLING THE AUTHENTIC TRUTH! and it's causing widespread outrage around the world.
"Fox News, long a preferred source of news for the right, has lately become an information refuge for American Jews who believe that the mainstream media has been too hostile to Israel."
Telling the truth is not being hostile. I'm doing that here while vehemently condemning hate crimes, antisemitism and professing love at every opportunity. And with the truth, I always show evidence. Always!
Hate
Started by metmike - Oct. 17, 2023, 4:15 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/99752/
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https://www.cnn.com/2023/11/03/media/fox-mark-levin-holocaust-cnn/index.html
There he is, the King of Hate, Mark Levin. I've called him out several times here for exactly that reason!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Republican debate 11-9-23
By metmike - Nov. 9, 2023, 1:39 p.m.
If you listen to hate mongering major charlatan Mark Levin on Fox, I hate Jews and support Hammas/Iran because I have empathy for the human beings in Gaza.
By metmike - Oct. 29, 2023, 3:59 p.m.
Re: Re: Re: OH, MY!! ISRAEL VS PALESTINE
By metmike - Oct. 29, 2023, 6:02 p.m.
I applaud Fox for exposing antisemitism and hatred at the link below and am totally on board with people that I normally disagree with on many things, when they get other things right.
https://www.foxnews.com/category/topic/anti-semitism
Sadly, they have a biased agenda that causes them to lie big about the last 40+ days of the story, which is Israels state sponsored hatred and blatant war crimes because of hatred for Palestinians. Fox completely censors that part of the story.
Ironically, Fox is the hate station. All their hosts in the evening spew hate messages for an hour long and get people fired up to hate Ds. It's what they do.
Super ironically is that they strongly and constantly support the biggest hate creating politician in the history of the United States. As well as reinforcing the belief that the 2020 election was stolen from Trump and that Ds cheat and rig elections. All the time......it defines them.
Fox is now becoming a refuge for Jewish Americans that suddenly want to pretend that Fox is credible on news in Israel/Gaza because they censor all the bad stuff Israel is doing there.
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Like every other Fox article, they pretend that Israel did nothing wrong and there is no cause and effect that the rest of the world sees., which is entirely behind this horrible increase in Jew hatred.
And after Oct. 7, we have seen that anything goes: Beheading babies and raping women is just fine. If it’s done to the Jews, they call it resistance," she said.
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According to their conspiracy theory, none of these are informed people protesting the really bad things that Israel is doing to Gaza right now and Palestinians for decades. it's gullible college students that got brainwashed by terrorists and Hamas, that have infiltrated college campuses. Like every other story from Fox, Israel is doing nothing wrong in Gaza or Palestine. Palestinians, Muslims and people that protest against what's going on can never be people that are empathizing with millions of human beings that are suffering incredibly thru one of the worst atrocities and humanitarian crisis's in decades.