Zalensky - A modern day Churchill
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Started by joj - Dec. 21, 2022, 10:24 p.m.

There is a bit of grumbling from the Putin wing of the Republican party but Zalensky's speech before congress was inspiring and loudly supported by both parties.

All lovers of freedom should be supporting Ukraine.

What would Ronald Reagan say if he were alive?

By 12345 - Dec. 22, 2022, 11:47 a.m.
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"What would Ronald Reagan say if he were alive?"


By cutworm - Dec. 22, 2022, 1:05 p.m.
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I wonder how many congressmen have military defense stocks ?

By metmike - Dec. 22, 2022, 2:51 p.m.
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By metmike - Dec. 22, 2022, 2:52 p.m.
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It's  sad (for the world) that the US leads in being one of the least corrupt countries in the world. They can't possibly be referring to our politicians or else it must be really REALLY pretty bad elsewhere.

Initially launched in 1995, the CPI defines corruption as “the misuse of public power for private benefit.”

"opinion surveys to rank countries based upon their perceived level of corruption"

OK, they actually do mean that. Wow!

I'm guessing that most people in the US think that politicians are corrupt........that represent the opposite party that they belong to.

By metmike - Dec. 22, 2022, 3:54 p.m.
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Being fascinated with human psychology and not belonging to any party and attempting to be objective, I always look at why people act a certain way to try to manipulate other people........which  makes our world go round today....manufactured realities and spinning information by gatekeepers to get things that they want from people.

Zelensky appearing before Congress to manipulate people in order to get something came right out of the same playbook as this:

Greta Thunberg Just Pulled an Iconic Move in Front of Congress

The 16-year-old climate activist says it’s time for lawmakers to listen to science.

Of course that act was a blatant farce to have a science no nothing, Marxist, anointed by the United Nations as the charismatic spokesperson(charlatan) to touch the hearts of people vulnerable to being bamboozled. 

Greta is very sincere and gifted but how sad it is to have this person represent climate science by saying  retarded science things to try to scare and indoctrinate children into the fake climate crisis religion at an early age.

Zelensky, on the other hand is the real deal and is an extremely brave hero and leader as well as being passionate and charismatic.

However, the manner in which they brought him over was following the same strategy that they used with Greta in the same venue.

They brought him over to get money. Whether the US should be sending Ukraine tens of  billions for something that has no viable ending point and part of that is both sides won't seriously negotiate and features both sides lying and selling propaganda is another matter but they used him the same way they did Greta.

Regardless of what I think of the US involvement and the war, Zelensky is one of the greatest leaders of our generation for HIS Churchill was in the previous generation as you stated.

Should we allow him to lead us into an endless quagmire?

Into WW-3?

That remains the unanswered question and for the US, it  should not be tied to his charisma or what his country personally has at stake or the fact that he came to Congress in order to get money with a bunch of political cheerleaders to push the agenda. 

The Ukraine Quagmire Will Be an Endless Problem for America | Opinion

If we knew the war would last for many years with no ending, kill huge numbers and continue to destroy Ukraine, would we still be for it. 

Because you always have to fight evil, no matter what?

Sometimes, you have to pick the lesser of 2 evils. We may actually be causing the war to be sustained much longer with these actions and there are many dozens of countries being subjected to  inhumanity and atrocities that don't get this much special treatment.

We've picked this battle to fight with Ukraine for the just cause.........just like we did Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, Korea.

The US has a really long history, since WW-2 of making the worst choices in conflicts to support a just cause overseas by exerting our power and support.

Every one of them featured massive,  convincing propaganda to get people to support those causes. 

That was the main objective of Zelenski's visit.......and it worked as planned.

By 12345 - Dec. 22, 2022, 10:30 p.m.
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"That was the main objective of Zelenski's visit.......and it worked as planned."



It's WORSE than they're telling you in Ukraine

By metmike - Dec. 23, 2022, 12:59 p.m.
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We should be INCREASING humanitarian aid to ALL poor countries in the world and assisting those in need everywhere, especially Ukraine.

My opinion is that we should not be picking sides in wars and sending tens of billions to sustain the wars longer, killing more people, doing more damage and risking WW-3. 

Referring to people that have views like mine as "the Putin wing of the republican party" is just a way to discredit a legit view with a closed mind that doesn't want to contemplate that view by clinging to the tribalism/politics defining most topics in our country.   

We remember when Ukraine's missile went into Poland?

Zelensky calls Russian missiles hitting Poland ‘really significant escalation’


If the US and world had listened to Zelensky insistence that the missile that hit was from Russia and  what we should do with his attempts to drag us into immediate military action against Russia, we'd probably  be in WW-3 right now!

We need to understand where this guy is coming from and the off the charts risk to our country and the world that he wants us to take for his country to win.......even if he has to lie and feed propaganda to us.

He is a great leader for Ukraine, a hero and I admire him but give him  an extremely low credibility rating, (rock bottom in fact because he only cares about one thing) when it comes to telling our Congress what to do with money from American taxpayers and risks that he insists we should all take for him and his country. 

I abhor evil Putin and his diabolical actions just as much as people that disagree with my opinion on this.

By cutworm - Dec. 23, 2022, 1:59 p.m.
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This war could have been stopped if the US had 1) a leader that at least looked strong. Like Kennedy and the Cuba crisis.  2) The US had done some military exercises in the area when it was apparent that Putin was building up troops on the boarder.

This is JMHO

But that is water under the bridge.

By 12345 - Dec. 23, 2022, 6:36 p.m.
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By joj - Dec. 24, 2022, 7:26 a.m.
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A country run by a dictator attacked a democratic country.

And this thread is full of everything but the most important fact.

By metmike - Dec. 24, 2022, 3:32 p.m.
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So that sums it up for you, joj?

No inconvenient facts should be considered and if they are stated, characterizing the sources as coming from the Putin wing of the republican party to discredit them.

By metmike - Dec. 25, 2022, 1:05 a.m.
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"A country run by a dictator attacked a democratic country"

The Economist is NOT part of a Putin supporting entity or a source that buys into conspiracy theories.

A new low for global democracy

The Economist is a British weekly newspaper printed in demitab format and published digitally. It focuses on current affairs, international business, politics, technology, and culture. Based in London, the newspaper is owned by The Economist Group, with its core editorial offices in the United States, as well as across major cities in continental Europe, Asia, and the Middle East. In 2019, its average global print circulation was over 909,476; this, combined with its digital presence, runs to over 1.6 million. Across its social media platforms, it reaches an audience of 35 million, as of 2016. The newspaper has a prominent focus on data journalism and interpretive analysis over original reporting, to both criticism and acclaim.


You're going to sources that are spinning information which distorts the realities and use incredible amounts of propaganda to do it to generate unquestioned support of something that has tremendous costs and incredible risks which we're supposed take on because:

"A country run by a dictator attacked a democratic country"

It's coming from BOTH sides. Sure one is evil and their attack on the other was completely unjustified and should be condemned from the rooftops but I've read hundreds of articles loaded with blatantly biased hogwash. 

When you're totally in the right and the truth justifies your position, objectives and need for support........then the costs and risks would be honestly stated along with the rest of the truth and it would serve, BY ITSELF to make the legit case for the position.

In this case, their actions using blatant propaganda and lies to justify the position is extremely revealing.

We hear all sorts of manufactured things about Putin's bad health and Russian's situation that are entirely designed to make us think that he's weak and can be easily defeated. Fake news.

When they tell us about the connection between these actions and the world paying much higher prices for food and energy..........all 8 billion people's all Putin's fault.........despite the choice to confront him actually being the cause. But it's never explained in an honest way.

If Zelensky wants to cause his country to be obliterated because he won't negotiate with Russia under any terms........that's his choice. He IS a great, brave and very charasmatic leader and HE WANTS TO COMPLETELY CONTROL HIS COUNTRY and not let Russia have any control….at any cost to him and his country and the world. 

However, his losses so far, have already far exceeded anything that can be gained if he wins and we don't have to be part of that. In essence, we might be making it worse.

We constantly read stories about how Ukraine is kicking Russia's butt and regaining territory and winning the that we will keep supporting it.

The reality is that the war is NOT getting close to being won by Ukraine. At this rate, it will go on for years and take place in Ukraine, where their country will continue to be obliterated.

There is no end point. We supposedly can't let Putin win and must not negotiate or give him anything that he wants out of principle of doing the right thing. 

The off the charts harm that we are doing to Ukraine and in some realms to everybody on the planet has already exceeded winning freedom of who control Ukraine.

Now, it seems like we have too many losses invested to ever give up, so the plan is to never give up and cause the losses to grow daily and have one side try to sell us on supporting a continuation of this.

Which is why the richest country in the world invited him to make a pitch for getting even more money to continue the debilitating losses in Ukraine.....which are becoming OUR losses. Money that could be spent on our poor people or those in other nations with humanitarian aid (not war machines to allow Ukraine to have enough killing/damage to the Russians to sustain the war even longer) or fixing the crisis on the southern border. 

Why is nobody reaching out to seriously negotiate?

Instead, they are doing 100% the opposite.

Vilifying Putin to the max to get people to support never negotiating under any terms because he's a monster. 

Actually causing  the monster to do all this damage instead of negotiating to give him things that we know would cause an end to the war.

That option is there and the war could have ended a long time ago and didn't have to happen.

But here we are. Another war and we're supposed to believe without questioning that there are no amount of losses so great that they would justify letting Putin have anything. 

by my reckoning, the losses to the world and especially to Ukraine have already greatly exceeded the potential maximum losses that would have resulted from giving Putin a couple of things that NATO, the UN and West don’t want him to have.

By metmike - Dec. 25, 2022, 1:10 a.m.
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Previous threads on this topic:

                Ukraine to ban religions affiliated with Russia    

               Off course missile hits west of Ukraine border    

       Russia-Uraine war October 22, 2022    

                the war on truth in Ukraine          

                45 responses |        

 Thoughts on Ukraine            

                              Started by metmike - Feb. 24, 2022, 1:44 p.m.    

By metmike - Dec. 25, 2022, 10:11 p.m.
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By joj - Dec. 25, 2022, 11:41 p.m.
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And you believe Putin because why?

Perhaps you just wish it could end peacefully?  

I do too... but I don't believe anything coming out of that monster's mouth.

By metmike - Dec. 26, 2022, 4:33 a.m.
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Thanks, joj.

All I did was copy/paste an article with no personal comments in the last post.

I’ve never said anything positive about Putin, including that we should believe him before, now or ever.

we shouldn’t.

My main points in this thread are related to showing the blatant distorted depiction of St. Zelensky.

starting this thread like you did has caused me to spend more time investigating and analyzing to search for better discernment.….

which is still not definitive.

its Always been crystal clear that zelensky is a great leader, very charismatic and a powerful speaker thats extremely brave.

however, what’s starting to increasingly bother me is that he will risk everybody in his country’s life as well as the structural and functional integrity of every system that allows ukraine to provide its citizens with basic needs In order for him to be able to control the country and not let Russia have any say.

he‘s also insisting that the rest of the world make tremendous sacrifices so that Ukraine doesn’t have to sacrifice anything by negotiating with Putin.

there are 2 main choices here.

1. negotiate with Putin using a   Sincere negotiating mindset not the extreme demands with no budging.

2. Don’t negotiate and have your country obliterated while expecting the NATO countries/US keep Russia from accomplishing its entire mission, which in reality assures us that the war will be endless And the toll of human lives, suffering and structural losses continue to mount.

this is not at all the way it’s being described by most sources today.

thats very saddening.

the lesser of 2 evils choice seems very clear if you view the honest realities and which one will greatly lessen the amount of human suffering.

the current choice is maximizing human suffering, then blaming it all on a Putin as if the West didn’t choose this path and had no control over it.

putin is at fault but the West is making it worse.

and the US is in the middle of another overseas conflict again which means conjuring up crazy propaganda  to sell the side we’re backing.

By joj - Dec. 26, 2022, 11:37 a.m.
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I'm open to the nuances beyond the issue of dictatorship vs democracy.

I consider the Economist to be a legit source for news but I was unable to open the link.

Unless you prove to me that Zelensky was not elected legitimately then I consider those nuances about corruption to be secondary issues.  Afghanistan for example was NOT a true democracy and so the corruption made our support of that regime to be a mistake by both Bush and Obama.  Trump and Biden were both correct to end our support.

Our choice is to support or not support Ukraine.  I am in favor of support.  It should be noted that Biden has not said yes to every request.  For example, long-range missiles which would escalate the conflict were denied to Zelensky.  And, your characterization of Zelensky "demanding" things from allies is inaccurate.  He is asking for support.

As for negotiations, we can and should be willing to be a broker, particularly as we are involved with military support.  But Ukraine gets to make the call.  

By metmike - Dec. 27, 2022, 2 a.m.
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You keep wanting the actions and support to be based on whether ukraine is a true democracy while ignoring some of the most important facts.

focusing on theoretical politics and twisted interpretations of a very bad outcome being justified out of a political principle, that is not even definitive.

is the country of Ukraine better off now and are the people  ôf Ukraine better off than they were a year ago?

is the world better off?

with no end in sight to the war and the potential damage likely accumulating, along with an outside chance of WW3, defending a shaky democracy by getting it obliterated in the real world is counter productive.

sort of reminds me of the play book and false narratives associated with the fake climate crisis, also used for political agenda.

they’re going to save/rescue the planet from the beneficial gas, CO2, which is greening up the planet and massively increasing world food production by replacing it with the diffuse and intermittent energy source from environmental hell, wind that will kill millions of birds and bats while damaging ecosystems and landscapes.

the not negotiating with Russia plan to save Ukraine is doing the same thing……getting Ukraine obliterated to save it...... because of politics. 

Ironically, the people most FOR Ukraine are the ones willing to accept the maximum suffering to get the political outcome they want.

That suffering is Russia's fault of course but it's easy to rationalize to justify the politics that the only way stop the suffering, ironically is a path maximizing the suffering and never acknowledging the lesser of 2 evils, only 1 evil force, Putin that must be defeated and we can't give him what he wants no matter what.

By 12345 - Dec. 27, 2022, 2:23 p.m.
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By metmike - Dec. 28, 2022, 4:13 p.m.
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Russia warns US against ‘decapitation strike’ targeting Putin

The hawkish Putin crony reiterated that Russia and the US cannot maintain normal relations, blaming the administration of President Biden.

“It is objectively impossible to maintain normal communication with the Biden administration, which declares the infliction of a strategic defeat on our country as a goal,” Lavrov said. 

Putin has repeatedly floated the idea of peace talks in recent days, but his top diplomat made it clear that Moscow has several preconditions, including that Ukraine recognize Russia’s conquest of around a fifth of its territory.

By metmike - Dec. 29, 2022, 12:49 a.m.
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Time for the West to think about how to engage with defeated Russia


What is essential about Putin’s departure, which may happen not only very suddenly but also quite soon, is that it constitutes a key condition for this analysis, since he is firmly set on a course that will deliver Russia to a catastrophe.


Propaganda articles like this telling people what they want to hear/read in order to sustain the support for the war have the biggest impact of maximizing the length of the war and increasing the tremendous damage to Ukraine. It's like there is no amount of damage to Ukraine that is unacceptable in this war or that will cause them to negotiate and give Russia anything.

They just twist it into a bigger reason to continue the war.

Initially, X amount of damage to Ukraine is acceptable in the fight with Russia.

X+1 amount of damage?  Fight harder, lose more people/and key structures

X+2 amount of damage? Fight even harder, ask for more assistance tell everybody that Ukraine is winning

X=3 amount of damage? Never negotiate. Only a win by Ukraine is acceptable.

X+ 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 amount of damage to Ukraine?=  Same exact plan. Tell people that Ukraine is winning. That Putin has a serious illness and will be dying soon. Tell people that Russians are going to overthrow Putin. State whatever propaganda that people need to hear to justify continuing a war that features  massive Ukrainian losses. The more the losses, the greater the propaganda to convince the world  to do exactly what creates the greatest losses for Ukraine.


Reality check on where Russia stands on this war:

Russian military announces plan to expand, create new units

Russia announced an ambitious plan to beef up its military from 1 million to 1.5 million and create multiple new units


Here are some of the numbers regarding the country of Ukraine being obliterated because of the war and not negotiating:

Number of civilian casualties in Ukraine during Russia's invasion verified by OHCHR as of December 18, 2022

These people did NOT need to die and what did Ukraine get for the tremendous loss of life?

Forecast change in Ukraine's GDP in 2022   -35%

U.S. military aid to Ukraine since January 24, 2022       47.819bn EU

Mykhailo Podolyak, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, said between 10,000 and 13,000 troops had died.

Neither Ukraine nor Russia tend to release figures for casualties, and Mr Podolyak's comments have not been confirmed by the Ukrainian military.

In June he said between 100 and 200 Ukrainian soldiers were dying daily.

Last month, the most senior US general, Mark Milley, said around 100,000 Russian and 100,000 Ukrainian soldiers had been killed or wounded since the start of the war.

In a video address on Wednesday, EU Commission head Ursula Von der Leyen said that 100,000 Ukrainian troops had been killed. However a spokesperson for the EU Commission later clarified that this was a mistake, and the figure referred to those both killed and injured.



 Situation Report Last updated: (Archive)

Key Figures


People in need
People targeted 
People reached as of 19 December 2022
Internally displaced people
Refugees in European countries




According to the International Organization for Migration (IOM), there are 5.9 million Ukrainians internally displaced in Ukraine as of 5 December, a reduction from 6.5 million recorded at the end of October. Yet, in the past month some 680,000 people have been forced from their homes, 40 per cent of them fleeing from the east and 25 per cent from the south of the country. According to the IOM’s latest estimates, there is no evidence of a new massive wave of displacement due to low temperatures and energy crisis across most-affected oblasts as had been projected. Only 7 per cent of the people questioned during the latest General Population Survey are considering moving from their place of residence, while over 785,000 of those displaced are planning to remain and assimilate into their new communities.

Humanitarian response


Humanitarian organizations continued supporting the people of Ukraine almost ten months into the war. Since 24 February, aid workers have reached 13.6 million people with various types of humanitarian aid, including 1 million in areas under the temporary military control of the Russian Federation, where access remains a challenge. 

The number of aid organizations working in Ukraine has increased five-fold in the past nine months to 700. Over 60 per cent are national non-governmental organizations.



  • 9.3 million people require food and livelihood assistance.
     Water, Sanitation and Hygiene (WASH)
    people reached

    • Approximately 16 million people in Ukraine need water, sanitation and hygiene assistance. Communities near the front line are most affected, as their water and wastewater infrastructure has been severely damaged. Moreover, they are facing constant disruptions to energy supply, limited regular maintenance and inability to access emergency and hygiene supplies.
    • Internally displaced people in collective centres face limitations in accessing basic water, sanitation and hygiene services. 
    • There is an elevated risk of diseases related to poor sanitation and hygiene and lack of safe water.

Overview of Population Displacement and Incidents with Civilian Impact, as of 12 December 2022



Russia has caused $6.8 billion in damage to Ukraine's energy infrastructure, The Kyiv Independent reports.

Over the past two months, due to constant attacks, the Russian military has either damaged or destroyed about 40% of the Ukrainian energy system.


The cost of war damage to Ukraine's buildings and infrastructure has reached $127 billion

 Josh Niland

By Josh Niland

Nov 8, '22 1:46 PM EST

The latest analysis from the Kyiv School of Economics (KSE) on the cost of direct damage to Ukraine's buildings and infrastructure since the beginning of the Russian military invasion of the country puts the estimate at $127 billion.

The report shows the largest share (39.7%) of the surveyable damage comes from residential structures, totaling 135,800 and equal to about $50.5 billion. As is usually the case in a total war scenario, transportation infrastructure was another big target. That category took up another 27.7% of the damage, with roadways ($26.6 billion) and railroad tracks ($4.3 billion) making up the majority of the $35.3 billion total. 

Other civilian infrastructure, like education and healthcare, have been targets as well, suffering totals of $6.95 billion and $1.6 billion worth of damage, respectively. That includes some 978 healthcare facilities and a total of 1,270 schools, the deliberate destruction of which is generally considered a war crime under the Geneva Convention. 


Estimated number of refugees from Ukraine recorded in Europe and Asia since February 2022 as of December 13, 2022, by selected country            


CountryAs of dateNumber of refugees
 Russia 10/3/22 2,852,395
 Poland 12/13/22 1,529,355
 Germany 11/22/22 1,021,667
 Czechia 12/6/22 467,862
 Italy 12/6/22 173,231
 Spain 12/6/22 156,753
 United Kingdom 11/29/22 147,800
 France 10/31/22 118,994
 Slovakia 12/13/22 102,873
 Romania 12/11/22 98,103
 Moldova 12/13/22 98,027
 Austria 12/6/22 89,244
 Netherlands 9/30/22 79,250
 Showing entries 1 to 13 (43 entries in total)


There were some extremely better paths that could have been taken and  in fact, can still be chosen to lessen a continuation of this ruinous path that Zelensky and his supporters have chosen for Ukrainians. 

The US has blood on its hand for choosing to support the effort that sustains the war the longest and damage the greatest to Ukraine. 

By joj - Dec. 29, 2022, 7:50 a.m.
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War will always result in more death.  Are you a pacifist?

Should Churchill have surrendered when Hitler was bombing London night after night?  He would have saved thousands of English civilian lives.

Under what circumstances would you advocate for war?

By metmike - Dec. 29, 2022, 12:29 p.m.
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Should Churchill have surrendered when Hitler was bombing London night after night?  He would have saved thousands of English civilian lives.

Thanks joj.

Those constant comparisons to Hitler are exactly what a huge part of the problem is right now. 

Where is the similarity to the concentration camps that killed 7 million Jews?

Where is the threat to the rest of Europe(other than the complete fairy tales meant to scare people in to supporting Ukraine to stop him in Ukraine before he invades the rest of Europe).

Are you not even familiar with what Putin wants here and against negotiating with him?

Under what circumstances would you advocate for war?

Great question, joj!

1. The rewards would have to exceed the risks and certainly the amount of damage from going to war would have to be less than the amount going to war. It's several orders of magnitude, the complete opposite here.

2. There was no option to negotiate. 

I've just answered those questions as clear as possible in the numerous previous posts, with data/facts and evidence. Since  you're asking them now, AFTER that tells me that you already know what YOUR answer is from the get go.

The one which YOUR side makes a compelling case for based on theoretical principles and false narratives  that are strongly contradicted with the real world on the ground............which is what I just showed. 

By metmike - Dec. 29, 2022, 1:05 p.m.
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This war could have easily been prevented by negotiating with Putin and giving in to his demands that would have been an infinitesimal concession compared to the off the charts amount of damage taking place and with no end in sight.

The craziest thing is one side selling the war to fight Putin,  which is hundreds of times worse  instead of giving Putin anything.

          What Does Putin Want?        

                            Barry Nalebuff     
  Milton Steinbach Professor of  Management    



We asked Yale SOM’s Barry Nalebuff, an expert on game theory and negotiation, what it will take to find common ground and bring the war in Ukraine to an end.

Turning to Ukraine and NATO, when Putin threatens war unless Ukraine commits to not joining NATO (as was the case in the constitution prior to the invasion of Crimea), at some level this should be easy for Ukraine to agree to as they were not about to join NATO anytime soon. But for political reasons and for nationalism reasons, they couldn’t make this commitment. Putin then sees the hesitation as a signal that NATO membership is imminent, and that makes him care about the issue even more.


Are you a pacifist?

Also, I'm not an ABSOLUTE Pacifist, just an objective realist and fact based critically thinking scientist not tied to any political parties. 

WW-2 was a no brainer war. 

Hitler had to be defeated and eliminated by any analysis.

Putin has to be defeated using a completely twisted political analysis with invented threats and dynamics to trump the reality of just negotiating and giving in to some of his concerns regarding threats to Russia from NATO/UN.

And it's not like he's coming out of left field with things that don't make sense and asking for the moon.

His demands could have easily been met without war. 

But Zelensky wants Ukraine to become part of NATO and for HIM to be in full control, not giving anything up to Putin. 

So Zelensky has to realize what this is doing to HIS country. I know Ukrainians are also for it but their view is based on what they are being told…zelensky didn’t tell them the truth about avoiding this war if he just made an agreement with Russia on NOT joining NATO… and of course, they will hate the person that is obliterating their country and killing them.

That's why people that understand the lesser of 2 evils concept and are objective and have the ability to use discernment that is independent of Nationalism and personal, self serving politics should be applying their judgment to make smart decisions.

Thats the opposite of the current situation.

They have their political objective and just create the false narratives, propaganda and rhetoric to convince people its the right thing to do even if tens of millions and a country must suffer thru a horrible war and the entire globe have negative consequences...........Ukraine should always have the right to join matter what the price is for them to have that right!

By metmike - Dec. 30, 2022, 12:29 a.m.
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You should consider me a conditional or pragmatic pacifist.

Conditional Pacifism

                Conditional pacifists are against war and violence in principle, but they accept that there may be circumstances when war may lead to less suffering.


Conditional and contingent pacifism: the main

I'm a pacifist that is strongly against war, unless it saves more innocent lives than it takes or there's a powerful justification that overrides the  killing and destruction of the war.

Having the freedom to join NATO is something that Ukraine should have the right to do.

Getting into a war that obliterates their country as shown above for that right????

Harms everybody on the planet from the indirect negative consequences to agriculture, food, energy and other markets?

One doesn't need to be a Pacifist to clearly understand that justifying a major war in your country needs much, much  more than what Ukraine wants...........if you're a reasonable person. Zelensky is not a reasonable person.


Zelensky 'won't negotiate' with Putin, requests accelerated NATO membership

Ukraine's President Volodymyr Zelensky said Friday that Kyiv is requesting fast-track NATO membership after Russia formally annexed four Moscow-held regions of Ukraine.

"We have already proven our compatibility with (NATO) alliance standards," Zelensky said in a video posted by the Ukrainian presidency on social media.

"We are taking a decisive step by signing Ukraine's application for accelerated accession to NATO," he added.

He also said that Kyiv would not negotiate with Russia -- which sent troops into Ukraine on February 24 -- as long as President Vladimir Putin was in power.


Again, Putin is to blame for the war but Zelensky is a great leader????...........unfortunately, leading his country into massive ruin that could take a decade to recover from, if ever!

Since the outcome of the project/endeavor that a person is overseeing is often the criteria for determining the  quality of the leadership, I'll need to retract my opinion that Zelensky is a great leader. 

By 12345 - Dec. 30, 2022, 1:31 a.m.
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"Again, Putin is to blame for the war but Zelensky is a great leader????...........unfortunately, leading his country into massive ruin that could take a decade to recover from, if ever!

Since the outcome of the project/endeavor that a person is overseeing is often the criteria for determining the  quality of the leadership, I'll need to retract my opinion that Zelensky is a great leader. "


By joj - Dec. 30, 2022, 2:13 p.m.
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Zelensky fairly represents the will of his countrymen and if there was an election today, he would win handily.  

Zelensky, and his cabinet, have the position that negotiations begin only when all Russian troops are off of Ukrainian soil.  I don't think he is a bad leader for leading the will (and spirit) of his people through a difficult time.  If one is suggesting a lesser negotiating position I think that is tantamount to surrendering to Russian aggression.

As far as the long view, the will and defiance of the Ukrainian people toward Russian authority will last for more than a hundred years.

By metmike - Dec. 30, 2022, 10:21 p.m.
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Thanks joj!

Zelensky fairly represents the will of his countrymen and if there was an election today, he would win handily.  

I had mentioned this earlier. 

We all know what charismatic leaders, nationalism and propaganda can do to  people in a country that wants to believe in the messages/agenda.

Even messages that defy critical thinking and are completely counter productive to their best interests.

75 years later, why did Germans follow the Nazis into Holocaust?

What we can learn is the following: we need to be careful how we interpret human behavior. If it is extreme, is it because people are seduced or brainwashed?


Who in their right mind in Ukraine, would pick this outcome for their country over agreeing not to become part of NATO and having peace?

1. Those with political aspirations like Zelensky

2. The brainwashed that have been led to believe that's not what the choice is. 

3. Various other reasons that make up a minority


"Zelensky, and his cabinet, have the position that negotiations begin only when all Russian troops are off of Ukrainian soil."

Just a reminder, it was Zelensky's refusal to negotiate that  caused the Russian invasion. This all could have been avoided. Putin gave his position and demands to  Zelensky BEFORE the invasion and claimed he would invade if Zelensky didn't respond.  Zelensky told him to shove it, no attempt to negotiate. Just a "Russia, you get nothing and we will do what we want because we are a free country, go ahead and attack us(the US and West will help us beat you)"

Now, 10 months later, Zelensky's position is this:

"If you stop the attack on us and leave our country because we refused to negotiate,  then we might consider negotiating with you.........on the issue that every day of every month this year, we insisted was non negotiable."

Russia tried that and it already failed miserably. Zelensky has always taken the same position and in fact has been pleading with NATO to fast track Ukraine into NATO NOW/ASAP. 

This is exactly what the Russian invasion is all about. 

Ukraine NOT becoming part of NATO.

What an absurd, disingenuous statement by Zelensky and his cabinet that completely contradicts all their words/actions.

If they ever get honest and are serious about negotiating, they need to say something substantive to give Russia something BEFORE they expect Russia to withdraw.

Again, Russia is totally wrong for invading Ukraine and Putin is an evil guy.

But the reality is that you can try to punish extremely powerful, evil guys in the global sphere and not have it cause MORE harm than letting them have a couple of concessions.

We've tried that..........and it failed miserably. Trying to punish Russia has actually backfired on the rest of the world. The damage we caused to Russia was not as great as the damage that we caused to the rest of the world.  

When the damage caused by the evil entity, greatly exceeds a couple of concessions to them by a few orders of magnitude, the logical thing to do is give into the LESSER OF 2 EVILS.

Forget the theoretical, wishful, manufactured outcomes based on fairy tale justice in a fake reality based on political agenda's of the West, United Nations and Ukraine's leaders.  

Ukraine is being obliterated in the real world and this was completely preventable in the real world and doesn't have to continue.

It can stop,  when those wanting to it to continue based on propaganda to brainwash people to think it can't be settled with negotiations.............stop the propaganda and operate based on the realities/truth. 

Doesn't seem likely but we can always hope. 

By 12345 - Dec. 31, 2022, 11:33 a.m.
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By metmike - Dec. 31, 2022, 12:21 p.m.
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I feel extremely bad that the good people in Ukraine are the targets of both sides, fighting a war in their country between Russia and NATO.

NATO and Russia 'No Doubt' May Fight 'Major War' Over Ukraine: Stoltenberg

Still, he expressed confidence that NATO "will avoid that" due to its increased presence in Eastern Europe. Following Putin's invasion, NATO enhanced the number of troops in several countries near Russia including Poland, Estonia and Hungary in an effort to deter the Russian leader from launching attacks against NATO.


It's fairy tale absurd to suggest that Putin might invade a  NATO country near Russia under the current scenario.  The only people falling for that are those that buy into the propaganda which uses a supposed threat to all countries in Europe, as if Putin is going to act like Hitler. 

If you believe that's possible, you are completely oblivious to what Putin wants and why he wants it, regarding insistence of Ukraine staying OUT of NATO.  This is THE reason for the war. 

Comparisons to Hitler are more to vilify Putin and mislead than they are to honestly explain what he's about. Being honest, would acknowledge that appeasing him would have only required a guarantee that Ukraine would not join NATO.

That's it folks. Keeping Ukraine out of NATO is what he wanted and still wants. That's what this is all about. The war would have likely been avoided if Zelensky just agreed to not joining NATO.

But NATO and the West WANT Ukraine, so they are backing this war to fight Putin to get Ukraine.  Zelensky is begging NATO to fast track them into NATO........and using his people and his country in this war to get into NATO. 

And the poor Ukrainian people are paying the price. 

By 12345 - Dec. 31, 2022, 1:12 p.m.
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By 12345 - Dec. 31, 2022, 1:32 p.m.
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"That's it folks. Keeping Ukraine out of NATO is what he wanted and still wants. That's what this is all about. The war would have likely been avoided if Zelensky just agreed to not joining NATO."





By 12345 - Dec. 31, 2022, 2:29 p.m.
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By 12345 - Dec. 31, 2022, 2:29 p.m.
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By metmike - Jan. 1, 2023, 10:52 a.m.
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When is a democracy, not a true democracy?

When it's Ukraine, led by Zelensky.                                           

 Ukraine’s proposed new media law threatens press freedom            

 The government’s attempt to take control of the media is anti-democratic and dangerous


metmike: For those that think this is only temporary and because of the war(or want to justify it with a captured brain mindset)............think again:


December 8, 2021-before the war

Independent Ukraine’s free speech gains are under threat

"At the halfway point in Zelenskyy’s presidential term, he now stands accused of repeating the tactics used by many of his authoritarian neighbors elsewhere in the post-Soviet region to muzzle the media and silence the opposition."


Zelensky signs media law criticized by journalist groups as authoritarian

by The Kyiv Independent news desk  December 30, 2022 12:44 am

"It proposes to give arbitrary and disproportionate regulatory powers to the national regulator, the National Council on Broadcasting, which would have authority not only over audiovisual media, but also over print and digital media," the federation said.

“The coercive regulation envisaged by the bill and in the hands of a regulator totally controlled by the government is worthy of the worst authoritarian regimes. It must be withdrawn. A state that would apply such provisions simply has no place in the European Union,” Ricardo Gutierrez, general secretary of the federation, said then. “Media regulation should be implemented by a body independent of the government and its objective should be media independence, not media control."

The Committee to Protect Journalists said in July that the law "threatens to restrict press freedom in the country and would move it away from European Union standards."


Based on the new anti democracy, anti freedom of speech, anti civil liberties policies of Zelensky's Ukraine, if MarketForum was in Ukraine, we could be shut down because of threads like this one!

After doing extensive investigating and sharing it here, I initially withdrew my previous statement that Zelensky is a great leader. Additional information suggests that he's an extremely dangerous man because of his charisma, with self serving interests that are much more important to him than the interests of his people and country which HE HAS CAUSED to be obliterated because he wants to become part of NATO.

Mainly what Russia has wanted from the get go is for Ukraine to commit to NOT becoming part of NATO and Zelensky has emphatically flaunted his commitment to do the exact opposite......become part of NATO and told Russia that he would never negotiate, so go ahead and attack us. Even begging NATO to fast track Ukraine into NATO during the war......sending a clear signal to Russia that there will never be any negotiating over what they want. 

Bottom line:

No NATO for Ukraine =No war in Ukaine

Yeah, it was that simple and could have easily gone that way.

And we are sending 10's of billions to support this and the entire world is taking it on the chin because Zelensky (and those supporting him) won't make this one concession to Russia.

Of course the NATO/United Nations(West-including the US) countries are feeding us as much propaganda as Russia feeds its citizens and continue to deceive us about the reality that I just proved above.