Outrage and anger continues to sky rocket in America
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Started by metmike - Oct. 27, 2021, 10:52 p.m.

When Trump was in office, the hate and anger from the left was deafening. The TDS was insane and blinded many democrats who would do anything to get him out of office.

They literally wanted bad things to happen to our country in order for it to make Trump look bad and result in him losing the election. CNN was a big leader in the crusade to defeat Trump. The Mueller witchhunt was totally a fraud with the intention of obliterating Trump. 

Though I personally disliked Trump a great deal, I spent a great deal of time defending him when the facts showed he was right about particular issues or the left was making stuff up to smear him.

I featured numerous CNN and CNBC threads showing them doing this blatantly. 

Chris Cuomo was the leading anchor of hate as he often, dedicated his shows in his very charismatic/emphatic style  to vilifying Trump. 

On the other side, Fox defended Trump 100% of the time.............even when he was wrong about things.

The lefts anger was especially obvious with the rioting last Summer. They acted like this was all about George Floyd because that excused it for being justified but it was at least as much about Trump and the right being in control. Nowadays, the party NOT in control's permanent frame of mind is extreme anger and rage. 

Trump clearly lost almost a year ago by every authentic measure. Then, the mentality switched parties. Funny thing is that I was more worried about what the left would do if Trump won. Turns out that the rights outrage has managed to exceed the left outrage. Something that I thought was impossible. I thought that could only happen with a 2nd term of Donald Trump. 

Wow, was I wrong. 

Since this site is dominated by active posters from the right, it's made it even more obvious. Like with TDS, posters are obsessed with anti  Fauci, Biden and government derangement syndrome. Not just an extreme  bias but an unhealthy, blind paranoid view using a tunnel vision that features blocking out anything that might contradict their belief system. OCD type, group think. 

Forget the science about COVID or vaccinations or the election results........ It's become defined as totally political for the republicans because democrats are behind the science or the election results.

 Ironically, a year ago it was the democrats that were anti vaccine because Trump was for it. You must remember. Harris and Pelosi said they were not going to get vaccinated if Trump said they should.  Democrats insisted that the vaccine would be dangerous because Trump was pushing it thru before it was tested and ready using the previous, reliable protocol. 

Republicans were more FOR the vaccinations than democrats were in 2020.......entirely because it was a Trump issue. 

Then Trump lost and it flipped completely. Ironically, the concerns of the democrats a year ago that it was not tested should have been obliterated after 4,000,000,000 have received at least one shot and we have massive real world safety and effectiveness data that far surpasses the data for anything in history for a period of a year.

And those concerns were diminished............ but concerns for republicans that have INCREASED as the safety and use of the vaccine has proven itself. Crazy. It's the exact opposite for every country and every party........except for the republicans in the US.

Most of the world agrees and is on board with COVID vaccines........with 1 big exception. The US republican party has flipped from being PRO COVID  vaccine under Trump to being ANTI COVID vaccine for the sole reason of it coming from the party and sources that they have been taught to hate and reject. ...Fauci and Biden.

If we were doing everything exactly the same right now but switched to Trump being in office, most of the republicans against the COVID vaccine would be for it. 

It's likely that many of the vaccinated democrats would not have been vaccinated if Trump still in office and was doing exactly what Biden is doing. Possibly over 20% of them? With at least that number of unvaccinated republicans getting vaccinated.....just because Trump was in office.

So one should ask. Where are people getting their information from to know how to act this way? We know that almost nobody is doing the research or has the understanding of a doctor or virologist, that they are applying to their decisions. If that were so, almost everybody would be vaccinated right now. 

Since this is totally political and not scientific, then clearly the messages must be coming from political sources.

Before I took over as moderator, I didn't follow politics that closely. After agreeing to try to bring back MarketForum from being completely dead for numerous months in early 2018 for Kate McCallum, I realized that in order to effectively be the referee in the numerous political battles that were a constant part of the new NTR forum, I had to do constant fact checking. 

As a scientist and somebody that loves learning new things, this actually was fun. It led to me watching CNN and FOX news for a couple hours each day to get a handle on the hot topics and what each side believed.

I was shocked at the TDS at CNN. 

But that was before the election.

After the election, I have been even more shocked at the mega extreme, anti science, anti factual, anti government, anti Fauci, anti Biden shows that are featured during the week day evenings at FOX. This is coming from somebody that has watched more FOX for news than any other channel the past 2 decades.

FOX now, is encouraging hatred, anger and outrage, using blatant disinformation in a way that I seriously never thought could be something that Americans who understand the world and have good critical thinking would ever watch.

Not only is it the #1 watched show, it's the biggest reason for the massive change in the discontent of millions of republicans. It's why tens of millions are against COVID vaccinations. It's a big reason for why tens of millions of republicans believe the election was stolen from Donald Trump. They have always  been the biggest mouthpiece for Donald Trump. Being for Donald Trump has made them tens of millions and in turn, it has helped brainwash tens of millions of avid Trump supporters.

But outside of the pro Trump position has been the instilling of unhappiness/discontent, hatred, anger and rage into their viewers. 

I know because I've watched them since the 1990's but especially in the last 3 years. 

And I see and read the views of some of the many millions that have had their intelligence stolen. They come here angry as hell, to have fights with anybody that disagrees with anything because FOX has instilled this behavior trait into them.............similar to how Chris Cuomo was doing that with his viewers when it came to Trump.

But FOX, since Biden won the election is making CNN and CNBC look like they were oracles of wisdom and truth during Trumps presidency. 

By metmike - Oct. 27, 2021, 11:09 p.m.
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But despite this, we all have a choice.

We can be happy. It is the most powerful personal choice that we can control. 

Nobody can take that away from us. Don't let them do it!

This is not saying that you should be ok with any decision that anybody makes. 

However, don't let them define your happiness so that it's completely tied to something that you will never be able to change.


By TimNew - Oct. 28, 2021, 3:08 a.m.
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I know very few that are "anti-vaxx".  I know many who are opposed to mandates.

Sorry if the anger of the people who value freedom upsets you.  But those of us who have looked at history are very concerned about what we are seeing, and it goes far beyond the vaccine debate.

But you know, the majority of colonialists were not in support of the revolution back in the 1700's. It's nothing new, and they had far less government interference/oppression to deal with than many of us just take for granted today. But we'll always have the "I have enough to eat and a roof over my head, and thats enough" crowd. What that crowd does not understand is that when that roof is "allowed" by the whim of government, it can be taken away at the whim of government, and if you don't behave........  If you say things they don't like.....

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 3:32 a.m.
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Actually Tim, I am not upset at all. I'm extremely content and happy with my life and want to share the secrets of being happy with others............especially those who are extremely upset because entities like FOX news have them convinced that they can't be happy in the current environment.

They have to be angry and raging and uncooperative because their political party is no longer in control

It doesn't have to be that way.

Happiness is a frame of mind that we all have control over.

It's sad to see so many people convinced that they are losing all their freedoms, while they give up one of the most important choices/freedoms of all...........the choice to be happy and also to know the objective truth. 

Being convinced that you must be unhappy, because FOX news tells us this, while having your intelligence stolen is not something that people would pick if they could realize thats what's happening.  

Just trying to shine some light on the situation. 

It's really good to stand up for solid agenda and one's belief system. The old republicans did that based on truth, ethics and the Constitution.

Now, the situation has been twisted to cause them to fight against the Constitution, fight a policy that helps America to stay healthy. Support a divisive psychopath, thats tearing their party apart and the best gift to the democrats in history......... while being unhappy because standing up for those items and watching the dems get stronger and stronger because of it  is not very fulfilling..........except to FOX with their blockbuster ratings.

Its a no win situation when the platform is based on lies and junk science and calls for being enraged and angry. 

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 3:55 a.m.
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Very few are  anti vaxx?

If that were so, then the republican rate of being vaccinated  wouldn't  be way below the dems.

A position that hurts them and their country and resists efforts by others to help them and our country is not very rewarding. ....but its the one that FOX is insisting they have. 

Fight for the right/freedom to do GOOD/constructive things.

Fight for the right to do things that make ourselves BETTER.

Fight for the right/freedom to do things that benefit others, make them and us healthier/safer. 

Fight for the right to do things that strengthen our country. Having one of the highest rates of COVID deaths is not a strength. 

Not for the right to do the exact opposite of those objectives and call it a freedom. What good is a freedom that hurts you and hurts others? This is exactly why the vaccine has to be constantly vilified. If it were seen as a good thing, then republicans couldn't justify rejecting it.

 It has to be mischaracterized as dangerous and not effective in order to justify NOT getting vaccinated as a freedom. Otherwise, what sense would it make to say that its my free choice to hurt myself and people around me? 

When Trump was president, the COVID vaccine was a really good thing for republicans, who all saw the benefits because Trump was saving us with it. You have to remember that. 

Now, because its what  Biden and Fauci want, the position has completely flipped.

FOX was for the vaccine all last year, then they flipped their position this year. FOX viewers just follow the group think mentality.

By 7475 - Oct. 28, 2021, 7:08 a.m.
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Ive read the posts above and dont have the gumption to join in except to say Im tired of all this stuff.

Im conservative and science/mechanically inclined'

But Im tired.

Maybe its a cop-out to say Im trying to live and let live. No one or no one side is 100% the Best.

Be grown up -you World , you -  Take your lumps with grace and try to deliver as few as you can.

And , yes , we DO have to be responsible and parent/patrol each other to keep IT safe! 

But Geeeeeze , World, show some class!

   John ---- later    off to build some more of America today   Again, Dont knock it down please.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 7:33 a.m.
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Thank you John!

Each of us has certain unique God given gifts.

At the end of the rodeo of life, we will all ask ourselves and more importantly, be asked by our God if we applied them to try to build his world up or tear his world down.

Not whether it was effective or not at changing the world in a big way.........not everyone is a MLK or Jesus.

But can we say with confidence did we at least tried to do  our best to do the right thing? 

As we were going along in life, what moral compass did we use to guide us to stay on the right path and do the right things for ourselves and others around us....the world?

Was it Fox News or some other powerful source or did  we do a sincere soul search and pick the right path from discovering and knowing the objective truth independent of the many evil sources trying to control our thinking?

It’s not easy to have discernment in today’s complicated and confusing world. Fact is that it seems almost impossible.

But it isn’t impossible. That’s the best news. And even better is that at any point in time we don’t have to remain a  complete slave to our past.

Every day is a new day and we start fresh.

We might have the same body and family and job and house and  so on but we have a free will that gives us countless choices every day about what we want to believe, who we believe and whether we want to be happy.

Whether we care about the best interests of the world or not.

Or, we can just let FOX  news and others tell us and hope their messages areright and hope for the best because we are not motivated enough to do the work involved to use our own discernment to determine the right path for ourselves. 

If the messages at FOX and other places are NOT the best ones, we still have to answer and be fully accountable for our decision to follow along.

FOX will get 100% of their profits but none of the blame when it comes to your personal accountability. It’s 100% on you........and so the importance of taking control away from FOX and  developing your own discernment.

One way that helps to separate the chaff from the wheat in today’s world is to view messages from sources that make a very wealthy living .....money and or power....using those messages to enrich their personal bottom line with extreme skepticism.

Most people will say anything if you pay them enough money. Some say whatever they need to say to make the most money.

When somebody is saying things for free and they are not gaining power....you at least know that the corrupting influence of money or gaining power is NOT driving the messages behind their words.

There’s more than just that but it’s a good way to separate those SELLiNG a message for their personal enrichment and those doing it for another reason.

By mcfarm - Oct. 28, 2021, 8:23 a.m.
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Everything you said does not fall under "anti-vac" you are close, it fall under forced mandates by bureaucrats. The way this was rolled out is the problem. It could of been presented so much differently. Funny it very similar to the riots and how accurately they were presented.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 8:48 a.m.
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You are right about the way that it was rolled out and especially WhO rolled it out.

If trump rolled it out, then you know with absolute certainty that his media cheerleader, FOX news would have been broadcasting how great the vaccine is, instead of, like now having different guests on every night telling us how awful it is to make people get vaccinated. A year ago FOX  was the most pro vaccine station on television.....by a wide margin.

This was back before it was proven and most people on both sides were skeptical.....but not FOX.

FOX waited until Biden took over, after the vaxx was proven safe for them  to become more and more skeptical.

That doesn’t even make sense to a rational objective mind.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 3:10 p.m.
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Being happy is sometimes very tough to do and takes work but it always boils down to a frame of mind that everybody is capable of acquiring.

They just need to want it and be willing to open their minds to accepting the recipe to happiness that is universal.

The richest people are not the happiest. Those most powerful are certainly not.

Money and power may provide rewards but they don't create lasting happiness.

This is why people that don't have perfect lives are also some of the happiest.

They don't dwell on what they don't have and what they can't change and use it to sabotage happiness.

Anger, rage and hatred are immensely damaging emotions to the person experiencing them.  Those that provoke and encourage those emotions in you are hurting you.

If you want to really understand the key to being happy, read this.

I actually reread it all the time to remind myself why I should be grateful and happy and I need that.

I don't paste it all the time here to show off my writing skills. It's a tool to use and share with others to help to acquire appreciation, which helps you on the path towards happiness.


You will note that this thread is not complaining about an entity or situation for the sake of complaining. It identifies the exact problem with razor sharp preciseness and provides the solution(s) to eliminating the problem that every human being in the US and planet can use effectively..........starting at this moment and practicing the rest of their lives.

By mcfarm - Oct. 28, 2021, 3:43 p.m.
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IMHO you give Fox news way too much credit for influencing the right. The right also in my opinion does a very good job of trying to stay independent and thinking without the aid of media.....atleast the right that I associate with. The right does indeed see the overreach of big gov in nearly every aspect of modern life and the overreach is a real threat that must be dealt with. Just sitting around pretending to be happy ain't going to cut it. Its the real world and from the boarders, to covid, to shipping, to climate, energy whatever we have tons to clean up. New gdp today was 2...yes a full point lower than predictions. Heavy handed big gov is not a way out of any current problem, its what got us here.

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 4:37 p.m.
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I agree with almost all of these problems too mcfarm.

Some of the agenda with this administration are actually the worst in history, the energy policy especially is jaw dropping ignorance and catastrophic. ....because that side WON the war on fossil fuels using the fake climate crisis.

You know this has been my leading issues for decades......authentic climate science.

Am I upset about it or hate those imposing destructive energy policies on Americans that I've insisted for a decade would hurt us bad?

What would be the point............other than to be unhappy. 

I can still post the same truth and authentic science and be happy or unhappy while doing it.

Being happy is the logical choice.

That's what this is all about. The choice you really want to make to make a difference in your life is whether to be happy or not.

To get enraged and quit your job/wreck you life over getting a shot that will be good for you? 

That's retarded logic, especially as it causes you to lose control over the one thing you should have the most control over..............your happiness.

Take that control back..........be happy.

Disagree with all the crap going on for sure but...........be don't let them make you unhappy because of it.

Look how many views this video got!

Bobby McFerrin - Don't Worry Be Happy


Here's what might be the best song ever about this performed by an all time great:

Louis Armstrong - What A Wonderful World (Original Spoken Intro Version) ABC Records 1967, 1970


By cutworm - Oct. 28, 2021, 5:01 p.m.
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I'm just so pissed at the left that I think I'll go down to the local town and burn it , go to the local CVS and loot it. 

NOT !!! That's the difference between then and now. People on the right don't do that. Having and Voicing a different opinion is not Hate. 

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 5:11 p.m.
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Thanks cutworm,

This is a good point, which is why the Insurrection shocked the heck out of many of us......it was so unexpected behavior. It DID happen though and it was serious, despite some that want to claim it should get a free pass because the GF riots were worse. 

I was convinced that a Trump win was the real threat for rioting(which we all know would still be continuing today if he won).

You've never shown anger or hatred and deserve admiration as a good example of somebody that strongly AGREES WITH almost everything FOX draws attention to every night but you can filter out the emotions.

Good for you!

You're also a very analytical thinking sort of guy......which helps.

By mcfarm - Oct. 28, 2021, 6:01 p.m.
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"to get enraged and quit your job"......what about first responders who have worked for decades getting fired because they do not have the correct paperwork? Is it acceptable for them to be angry?

By metmike - Oct. 28, 2021, 9:59 p.m.
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Good point mfarm. I phrased it as them quitting their jobs  and should have been more clear Really meant to say them “losing” their jobs over it.

We will never agree on this but I think it’s insane for people to be willing to meet all sorts of requirements for their jobs but on this one, refusing to get a shot with extremely low risks to benefit them and people around them because of a distorted freedom principle and/or being misled about the science is one of the dumbest or naive  things a person can ever do.

What exactly are they gaining by refusing to do something that all science shows is a rock solid benefit to them and to people around them?

They are sadly confused to think that it’s defending some sort of personal rights to choose what they get to do with their bodies.

1. Employers have a right to protect the work environment for everybody. Why would take a stand against that?

Anybody that thinks this is about the government or others agenda to control us is grossly mistaken from getting their information from the wrong anti science sources.

Kids have had mandatory vaccine requirements to get into schools for numerous decades. This is a big part of how we eradicated some of the major diseases.....based entirely on the science.

Nobody from other countries has twisted it into a political party false narrative, using junk science to convince republicans to rebel against our government, Fauci and Biden.

Many of the same anti vaxx mandate people, who almost all focus on cherry picked, outlier data and sources to justify their position with speculation of what  we might now know, while ignoring 10 times more data that shows the opposite.......were actually pro vaccination cheerleaders when Trump was the leading advocate to bring COVID vaccinations to the market/people in record time.

Most of them only acquired this new, opposite position after the person in the White House promoting vaccinations changed to somebody from the wrong party. The party that, no matter what they say or do, must be opposed by every cell in their body.

People practicing dumb science, that hurts them and other people, because of politics, ignorance or bias are their own worst enemies.......and they only hurt everybody as well as themselves.

Sorry but they get 0 sympathy from me. My hero’s make sacrifices that produce something positive. Things to help other people, not hurt them. Set good examples not bad ones, especially bad examples politically by using politics to reject solid science because they hate the people in the other party and the government so much, they are willing to lose their jobs instead of cooperating with them to do something totally justified scientifically and socially.

They absolutely deserve to be canned.

And I am all for personal rights and less government.

But that doesn’t include people doing whatever they want, including behavior that hurts other people and NO government.

Spare me the cherry picked, brain dead, twisted interpretations that claim getting vaccinated doesn’t greatly help snuff out COVID or that the risk of the shot is greater than the benefits.

You are 11 times less likely to die from COVID if you were vaccinated.

We have 10 times more data than we need to show that conclusively. Anybody that says otherwise is lying or confused.

The government and entities pushing the vaccinations are solidly doing the right thing. Those fighting it are clearly doing the wrong thing.

This is about right and wrong based on science and society and should not be about bs politics.

People getting fired for not getting vaccinated suffered the consequences for doing the wrong thing....and have more than enough chances to just get the very low risk shot 2 times.......then go on with their lives the same way as before......onlybetter protected from dying of COVID.

That’s all we want from them. They give up absolutely nothing of their legit personal rights and freedoms.

By metmike - Oct. 29, 2021, 12:37 a.m.
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I realized earlier after the last post that it did not mention a key part of getting vaccinated and freedom/rights.

If you want to have MORE rights/freedom, the best way to do that is to get vaccinated.

A person better protected by the vaccine has less need to wear a mask when they are around other people. Some places now are requiring evidence of vaccination for you to get in or attend. Refusing to get vaccinated shuts you out.

In the best example possible, a business partner with in my wife's new business, who is a far right sort of guy just got burned badly by refusing to get vaccinated this year.

They business, had a key meetings this week in Lindsey Ontario, Canada with people from several countries there including my wife. Unfortunately, I didn't have a passport ready in time or I'd have gone too.

So another partner in the US loaded his van up, including some key equipment and headed north, trying to cross from Detroit over to Windsor across the Ambassador bridge. One that I'd crossed a dozen times while living in or visiting Detroit(before needing a passport).

He got 1 COVID shot earlier this month and thought that would get him in. No Way!

So he got a 2nd shot at Walgreens in Detroit and I told him they would still not let him in because the vaccine doesn't magically start working to protect you instantly. It takes around 2 weeks after the 2nd shot, which is also the time frame Canada requires before letting you in.  Canada refused to let him in again. 

So he just messed up the most important week of his life, with the new business starting up  and his not get vaccinated took away his freedom to travel to Canada.

It would have only take 2 shots at any point earlier this year. Nobody in the US that is not fully vaccinated can enter the country of Canada for any reason(unless they have a 14 day quarantine plan).

Biden and Fauci have no influence on the country of Canada. Why do you think that Canada and other countries have these policies? To trick people into giving up there rights and freedoms? Of course not.

Same reason they are mandating vaccinations in the US............regardless of who's doing it or what party they belong to.

You also need to have passed a COVID test within 72 hours of your arrival to get into Canada in combination with the 2 shots that are usually free here in the US. 


Check if you qualify as a fully vaccinated traveller

To qualify as a fully vaccinated traveller to Canada, you must:

  • have received at least 2 doses of a Government of Canada-accepted COVID-19 vaccine or a mix of 2 accepted vaccines
    • or at least 1 dose of the Janssen/Johnson & Johnson vaccine
  • have received your second dose at least 14 full days prior to the day you enter Canada
    • Example: if your second dose was anytime on Thursday July 1, then Friday                July 16 would be the first day that you meet the 14 day condition
By TimNew - Oct. 29, 2021, 2:45 a.m.
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Actually Tim, I am not upset at all. I'm extremely content and happy with my life and want to share the secrets of being happy with others............especially those who are extremely upset because entities like FOX news have them convinced that they can't be happy in the current environment.

They have to be angry and raging and uncooperative because their political party is no longer in control

This is actually hillarious MM.  Thanks for the morning chuckle.

Anyway,  I get why you are happy.   You like "Some" censorship.  You are all for government mandates and I can't guess where you would draw the line on this.  But if you support the government forcing an injection on people over a disease with a 99+% survival rate,  I'm gonna guess you don't draw much of a line at all.  Also, You like the idea of socialized medicine.   

Obviously,  you have a strong need for a lot of government involvement in your life. You want someone to take care of you and make the important decisions.  And that's exactly where this country is heading.   So, good for you. No wonder you're happy.

But I've got a secret  that you obviusly missed.    You won't like the way the story turns out.

So,  I am not angry because FOX told me to be  (Why do liberals always trot out FOX?). I am angry because so many people agree with you, and unlike them,  I am familiar with where this ends up.

By metmike - Oct. 29, 2021, 3:23 a.m.
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I feel sorry for you that your response to a person sincerely trying to help others to be happy is to call their comments hilarious and good for your morning chuckle. 

Rather than respond in kind with a similar attempt at demeaning and being disrespectful, the best way to respond to a person like this is:

1. Recognize what they are doing and don't take it personal........even if that's their objective.

2. Never respond in kind or it turns into a psssing match. 

3. Appreciate that this person doesn't appear to have intentions to have a civil discussion with you but is completely focused on mischaraterizing your views in order to be able to maximize the attacks on them/you.

4. Use an objective analysis of their points and method to communicate them and look for any opportunities embedded in the content that could result in a constructive conversation or that go in a positive direction or at least a respectful conversation. If you can't find them................go on to something else, otherwise, you're just enabling somebody that wants to have a fight and to attack demean you. 


Being moderator here, especially recently is causing metmike to learn much more about relationships and communication with others more than everybody else combined...........seriously! 

So your comments are definitely having an affect on me............but not the one you intended (-:

By TimNew - Oct. 29, 2021, 3:46 a.m.
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I'm sorry for you that you view direct quotes of statements you have made as a personal attack.  Are you unhappy with your beliefs?  Good. Step back and figure out why.  If you are happy with them,  I can't begin to understand why you would feel my restating them would be unkind.

All that aside,  I wanted to point out how and why your misinterpretation of the source of my discontent was entirely off the mark. It has nothing to do with what FOX has told me.  I barely watch FOX.

I am very much opposed to the nanny state that you appear to eagerly support.   If I have misunderstood,  I apologize.  I would very much lke you to explain exactly what I have missed.   

By metmike - Oct. 29, 2021, 4:02 a.m.
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I already explained my points in great detail Tim.  The only thing that I didn't come right out and say(but it should be obvious), which is even more important than being happy is that I'm trying to SAVE LIVES.

It's pointless for me to repeat the points again. They are already stated.

Unlike most things, I will never budge on this one, unless the vaccines suddenly started killing alot of people. After 4 billion shots and it didn't happen and long term side affects are extraordinarily unlikely.  You want long term damage...........get COVID. 

It's like gravity or other known laws in physics, science and medicine. 

We know how vaccines work and why they work based on the rock solid proven medical principles that cause them to increase our antibodies to fight diseases. 

They've been around for many decades and saved many millions of lives.

That is not going to change so neither am I, nor should anybody that understands science and is using that to justify that position with the COVID vaccines.

You can stick with your decision to completely ignore science and use a political excuse to justify people refusing to get vaccinated. Your choice. I think it's wrong, so we will never agree on this. 

Your position costs lives.

Mine save lives.

Nothing will change that.

By metmike - Oct. 29, 2021, 4:13 a.m.
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I also didn't say that Tim watches FOX (i apologies if that’s what you thought- cause I don’t know) or that ALL republicans watch FOX to get their ideas but many millions do.........including me, sometimes a couple of hours in the evening, so I know exactly what their messages are and of course who the viewers are that they target.

By TimNew - Oct. 29, 2021, 2:35 p.m.
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The only thing that I didn't come right out and say(but it should be obvious), which is even more important than being happy is that I'm trying to SAVE LIVES.

Do you agree with the statement "It can't be an infringement on your rights if it's for your own good"?   Sure sounds that way and totalitarians have used language like that for centuries.

BTW,  I am all for the vax.   My wife and I have both gotten them and will likely get a booster soon.   I think everyone should do the same.

But the difference between us, and ITS HUGE. is that I don't believe that I have the right to force anyone else to get the vaccine.  Especially for a virus with a 99+% survival rate and a well defined risk group.

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 1:53 a.m.
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Just got back from being a DJ at a wedding reception.

"Especially for a virus with a 99+% survival rate"


I don't know why you keep reporting that incorrect information. Is it to try to justify the position?

Maybe part of your opinion is based on not realizing how bad COVID really is.

The number of cases has been 45,655,635

The number of deaths has been 740,348.


So 1.6% of people that got COVID died, almost double what you keep claiming. But the deaths are only the worst end point. 

By far, the biggest problem, because it affects at least  20 times more people than those that die is LONG COVID.

Apparently you are totally oblivious to the huge problem called "long COVID". I'd like to read your opinion on it after you read this post.

This is by far the biggest problem, which is occurring for many millions of people seriously afflicted, some permanently damaged with long COVID.

Let me help you out with the science/data. This was as of late August, so the numbers are even higher now.

Estimates of Americans with long COVID-19, per state


About 11.1 million Americans are living with long COVID-19, according to new estimates from The American Academy of Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation. 

Long COVID-19, or persistent symptoms up to six months after being cleared of the illness, affects around 30 percent of individuals who had COVID-19, according to two recent publications from the Journal of the American Medical Association. Symptoms of long COVID-19 are varied and may include neurological challenges, cognitive problems, shortness of breath, fatigue, pain and mobility issues.

metmike: So please stop stating that 99%+ of people survive, which is not accurate and please stop ignoring the 30% of people that are still sick for up to 6 months, some unable to function normally and some that are sick longer than that.  This adds up to an additional 11 million+ Americans that have their health seriously messed up for a very long period from having COVID.

Let's go ahead then and use your criteria of how many people are seriously  affected   to determine whether it's worth the inconvenience of getting 2 low risk shots.....except we'll use the REAL numbers, not your fake numbers.

Deaths =1.6%

Long COVID = 34%

Total =35.6% and now almost 12,000,000 people.

The best way to lower those numbers?

Get vaccinated.

Those are the facts.

Are those long COVID numbers too high?

Actually the latest science/studies say they are much higher than that, see this one below.


How many people get 'long COVID'? More than half, researchers find

Half of COVID survivors experience lingering symptoms six months after recovery


The investigators noted several trends among survivors, such as:

  • General well-being: More than half of all patients reported weight loss, fatigue, fever or pain.
  • Mobility: Roughly one in five survivors experienced a decrease in mobility.
  • Neurologic concerns: Nearly one in four survivors experienced difficulty concentrating.
  • Mental health disorders: Nearly one in three patients were diagnosed with generalized anxiety disorders.
  • Lung abnormalities: Six in ten survivors had chest imaging abnormality and more than a quarter of patients had difficulty breathing.
  • Cardiovascular issues: Chest pain and palpitations were among the commonly reported conditions.
  • Skin conditions: Nearly one in five patients experienced hair loss or rashes.
  • Digestive issues: Stomach pain, lack of appetite, diarrhea and vomiting were among the commonly reported conditions.

"These findings confirm what many health care workers and COVID-19 survivors have been claiming, namely, that adverse health effects from COVID-19 can linger," said co-lead investigator Vernon Chinchilli, chair of the Department of Public Health Sciences. "Although previous studies have examined the prevalence of long COVID symptoms among patients, this study examined a larger population, including people in high-, middle- and low-income countries, and examined many more symptoms. Therefore, we believe our findings are quite robust given the available data."

"The burden of poor health in COVID-19 survivors is overwhelming," said co-lead investigator Dr. Paddy Ssentongo, assistant professor at the Penn State Center for Neural Engineering. "Among these are the mental health disorders. One's battle with COVID doesn't end with recovery from the acute infection. Vaccination is our best ally to prevent getting sick from COVID-19 and to reduce the chance of long-COVID even in the presence of a breakthrough infection."


Now that you know the actual facts, how can you continue to justify, using a very wrong fact that suggests that COVID only has a major impact on  less than 1% of people that get it?

It's actually more than 35 times greater than that..................and that was using the more conservative number from a couple of months ago.

The 2nd study just out,  which may actually be the better one,  found it to be more than 50 times that. 

Was that study reliable or did I cherry pick to find something that showed what I wanted to show? They used data from 57 reports to compile a very comprehensive, objective analysis......the complete opposite of what some people do........ finding 1 outlier study that has an individual result. Or siting 1 stat that represents a tiny portion of the enormous negative health consequences of COVID on people. This is rock solid authentic science. 

Here's their explanation: "The researchers conducted a systematic review of 57 reports that included data from 250,351 unvaccinated adults and children who were diagnosed with COVID-19 from December 2019 through March 2021."

I actually have more but let's just address this part of it first.

Looking forward to your response.

By TimNew - Oct. 30, 2021, 7:46 a.m.
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Ohhhhhhh..  Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Sooooo,  we have only have a 98+% chance of survival.   That changes EVERYTHING!!!!

But lets not quibble.  I would still think madates were wrong even with a 75% survivability rate.  Of course, at that point,  I would begin to understand the oppositions arguments.   With the upper 90's?   I can't see them as anything but sheep.

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 11:15 a.m.
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 Almost the entire last post by me was about long COVID with 2 links showing the studies, data and science. 


The most reliable one indicating that over 50% of people who recover from COVID, suffer from the debilitating, long lasting  health conditions that I specifically listed to help crystalize them in your mind and hoping to get a response from you about this.

Your response?

Totally ignore every bit of it because it won’t support your position. Instead use the death stat only and hang your hat on that and then get mega extreme on the deaths and say that you wouldn’t budge on your position even if COVID was killing 25% of the people that got it......which would not just make it the leading cause of death in the US but would mean that it killed as many people as every other cause of death......added up.

I do agree with you on one thing Tim. There  is a big difference in opinion between us on this.

Obviously you are willing to sacrifice millions of other people’s lives because of your personal belief system on freedom and right to choose on this issue.

I’m willing to make just a tiny adjustment  to my right to choose in just this unique case by getting a couple of very low risk shots since the indisputably proven science shows that it will save millions of lives that I don’t have the right to sacrifice for my personal belief system.

I was going to show the long history of accepted mandatory vaccines in the US and how effective this was at eradicating diseases in the past.....but obviously nothing will make a dent in how you’ve decided to interpret this issue.

Thanks for the response to help make your position crystal clear.

By TimNew - Oct. 30, 2021, 12:53 p.m.
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You're right MM.  You're all for government control.   You want someone bigger and smarter making your decisions for you and taking care of you.

I honestly feel sorry for you.

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 12:55 p.m.
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By TimNew - Oct. 30, 2021, 2:18 p.m.
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Heres the thing MM.   Suppose you take all the precautions.  You get vaccinated.   You wear a mask.  You wash your hands.  You avoid social contact.  Everything you should do, and your chances of getting covid are slim.  If you do get it, chances are the symptoms will be mild.   Good for you.   I think everyone should do something very similar to that and that is the choice my wife and I have made.   Thank goodness RV'ing is automatically social distancing.  We're not even risking hotel/motel rooms.

I think someone not following some, or all of these precautions are making a mistake.  But there's a whole long list of risks everyone takes just about every day.  Leave your house and drive on the hiway is a risk,   1,000s of deaths every year and 10's of thousands of serious life changing injuries.  The government could end all of that tomorrow by making regulations that cars be built like tanks and go no faster than 10 MPH.    Problem solved,  right?   But no one would stand for that. 

Life is about choosing the risks we are willing to take.   You, and by extension the government have limited moral or ethical justification for making those choices for somweone else.  

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 5:11 p.m.
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This is science and medicine. Not politics for me.

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 5:52 p.m.
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But for those that like to play politics with it.....they are actually going against the Constitution too:

The Court and Constitutional Interpretation


"The Court is the highest tribunal in the Nation for all cases and controversies arising under the Constitution or the laws of the United States. As the final arbiter of the law, the Court is charged with ensuring the American people the promise of equal justice under law and, thereby, also functions as guardian and interpreter of the Constitution."

The Surprisingly Strong Supreme Court Precedent Supporting Vaccine Mandates


From a liberal source:

The U.S. Has A Long Precedent For Vaccine Mandates


From a conservative source:

The Long History of Vaccine Mandates in America  


Childhood immunization: laws that work      



 School Vaccination: The Precursor to School Medical Inspection

01 July 1978


metmike: The US is the only country in the world where one party is fighting the science and medicine for reasons invented by their party to get them to discard common sense and fight with every cell in their body against any agenda the other party represents.......even though it been resolved in the past using the Constitution/Supreme Court and imposed for decades.

Again, people are getting misinformation in medical, scientific, legal and common sense realms to fuel the fires of anger, rage and hatred that are intended to stir discontent and unhappiness which are intended to be used to fight the party that's in control.

This is nothing more than a power play, using people that believe in this stuff as their sheeple.

Do fight for things that are ethically right, honest, scientific, help our country and give us MORE freedoms.

That's the funny thing about this position. They are tricking. you.

 Getting everybody vaccinated actually INCREASES your freedoms by the most not DECREASES.

It's the most effective way to crush COVID.

That means:

1. Less mask mandates

2. Less lock downs

3. Less restrictions

4. More opportunities to travel(you need 2 shots to get into Canada) You need proof of vaccination for enter many events.

If you want to take away the most rights and freedoms possible in your life.............DON'T GET VACCINATED.

In addition to the much higher potential health risks that you are taking for you and people around you, it  causes  loss of freedoms NOT gain in freedoms in several other areas.

After all this time, I still haven't heard exactly what the REAL WORLD benefits are for not getting vaccinated which are worth having all these REAL WORLD penalties?

Because it allows you to do what you want?

I can hit myself in the head with a hammer too. and brag that its my right...........but what's the point?

For those tricked into being paranoid that this is the start of the government taking control of our bodies and lives(when the medical evidence says the opposite) , they sure are taking a long time to getting to that next step of control...........since the Supreme Court initially ruled as the arbiter of the Constitution, that mandatory vaccines are legal  over a century ago. 

By metmike - Oct. 30, 2021, 6:22 p.m.
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So much easier and rewarding to fight for things that are good and right...that make our country stronger and healthier. Get along with people. 

That's one super duper  way to be happy. 

By mcfarm - Oct. 31, 2021, 7:35 a.m.
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last time I looked the "court" was made up of humans who are far from infallible. They also decided abortion laws and Obama care for recent cases. Abortion law stepped all over states rights which is exactly where abortion should of been settled. And anyone can see what happened with Obama care, what a farce. Yes its our system, part of the best system in human history but still

By TimNew - Oct. 31, 2021, 7:41 a.m.
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An inteligent discussion on the Jacobsen case.

Jacobson v Massachusetts: It’s Not Your Great-Great-Grandfather’s Public Health Law (nih.gov)

The states’ sovereign power to make laws of all kinds has not changed during the past century. What has changed is the US Supreme Court’s recognition of the importance of individual liberty and how it limits that power. Additionally, states have changed how they use their power and what they regulate as new health problems and solutions emerge. In this article, we discuss these changes by examining (1) the conceptions of state power and personal liberty discussed in Jacobson and (2) 20th-century cases that expanded, superseded, or even ignored those concepts. Finally, we speculate about how challenges to analogous public health laws would be decided today in light of the evolution of science and constitutional law.

By metmike - Oct. 31, 2021, 10:36 a.m.
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I agree with your ethical points about the Supreme Court and that they are comprised of humans that are far from perfect and can make decisions that violate ethical standards  of many people and science of all people.

Abortion law, is the quintessential example and I agree completely with that.

 Not just politically and ethically but scientifically. 

A piece of flesh doesn't magically turn into a human being when he or she (IT if you believe them) exits the womb at exactly 9 months or sooner. 

This is an anti science anti biological interpretation in order to justify the legal convenience of being able to kill an inconvenient human before birth. Of course the person.............was a person just prior to leaving the birth canal. 

One can have a good debate on when they actually should be called a person. Some believe the moment of conception. 

I get the argument that this is KILLING human beings/lives.

But where vaccine mandates are completely different, ethically/morally is that the vaccine mandates SAVES LIVES. .....many thousands and it is based EXACTLY on the science, where as abortion law ignores the science.

So using your argument and example of abortion law, based on ethics and science would actually  STRONGLY SUPPORT vaccine mandates even more. 

My entire position has nothing to do with laws anyway.

Even if the Supreme Court ruled that all mandates were illegal/wrong, like with abortion, I know clearly what the science is and I know what's right and what's wrong and will not be tricked by politics. 

That's why I personally, strongly support vaccine mandates.

By metmike - Oct. 31, 2021, 10:49 a.m.
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I totally agree that this is an intelligent discussion on the topic.

I agree, that when this good argument was made in 2005, it pointed out differences in society compared to when the Supreme Court made their decision a century earlier.

Interestingly, things have changed a great deal again since 2005 and the current pandemic, actually has similarities that align very closely with the Supreme Court's reasoning, now over a century ago.........which BTW, are still valid today legally, as representing our Constitution. (that were NOT out there in 2005 when this solid argument was put out there for discussion).

By TimNew - Oct. 31, 2021, 11:38 a.m.
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I'm pretty sure we'll see that question tested at SCOTUS sooner or later.  Want odds on the outcome?

By metmike - Oct. 31, 2021, 12:12 p.m.
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I agree with you that it WILL be tested too Tim.

I'm not betting on anything regarding politics.

Again, my position is totally based on science/medicine, ethics and doing the right thing to make our country stronger and healthier. 

Man's interpretation of the politics changes with the men/women.

Laws of nature and biology, as well as doing the right thing..........NEVER change.

By TimNew - Nov. 1, 2021, 7:36 a.m.
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This is not politics, or at least the supreme court should be above politics, and with the majority of the justices being constitutional fundamentalisdts, we'll be as close to that as we can be.

The article I posted forshadows how that ruling will go in spite of your claim that "everything has changed since then".   Logic and ethics do not change because of what you seem to feel are drasitic conditions.  Further hint .  They are not.

By metmike - Nov. 1, 2021, 11:54 a.m.
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I say, let the Supreme Court decide, even though you apparently think you already know their decision.

Are you as confident as when you and Gunter and mcfarm insisted repeatedly that drugs are what killed George Floyd and that  Derek Chauvin wasn't the main reason?

                Derek Chauvin trial             

                            61 responses |      

                Started by metmike - March 29, 2021, 10:39 p.m.            


By TimNew - Nov. 2, 2021, 4:08 a.m.
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LOL,  you want to use that travesty of justice as a precedent?   Oh wait,  I'm sure you do.

By metmike - Nov. 2, 2021, 9:34 a.m.
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