Does the Covic vaxx really reduce hospitalizations and death?
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Started by GunterK - Sept. 22, 2021, 5:48 p.m.

As most of you know, when the Delta arrived, the vaxx efficacy dropped from 96% to 39%, even though our “talking heads” avoid mentioning this. When this subject is brought up, the common answer is “yeah, but it still protects you against hospitalization and death by 80-88%”.

Let’s check some data….

The study linked below addresses multiple Covid variants… I am only focusing on the Delta … discused on pages 21 and 22.  I encourage you to have these 2 pages displayed on a second browser, while I present the numbers.

Please note that this part of the study does not focus on infection cases, but on people who supposedly came to an ER because of a severe Covid infection.

First the specimen sizes (focusing on the “All Cases” category):

Less than 21 days since first shot….. 27,993

More than 21 days since first shot….80,877

Fully vaccinated………………………….. 113,823           

Total of all vaccinated....………222,693

Unvaccinated ……………………  219,716

We have to take the vaccination status into consideration. At the time of this study, the UK was 64% fully vaccinated. However, even with this in mind, the vaccine has clearly not provided an 80% protection against hospitalization.

And now to the number of fatalities among those very same patients:

Less than 21 days since first shot…..   16 out of 27,993 = 0.06%

More than 21 days since first shot…  126 out of 80,887 = 0.16%

Fully vaccinated …............................1091 out of 113,823 = 0.96%

Unvaccinated…............................... 536 out of 219,716 = 0.24%


  1. the more thoroughly vaccinated you are, the more likely you are going to die.  Shouldn’t this be the other way?
  2. fully vaccinated people have a higher fatality rate when infected, than unvaccinated people. This clearly contradicts the stories we have been told by our scientists and sheds a very negative light on the vaccine.

Breaking down these data into age groups was not the subject of this discussion.  However, you will notice, on the top of this table, that among the fully vaccinated people, both age groups are approximately equally represented…. whereas the number of unvaxxed hospitalized people >50 is unexpectedly low (6724 vs 212,989 of the young crowd) . I found this to be very strange.

Sceptics might ask “are you sure that all these patients really came into the ER with a severe covid infection?”. No, we are not. As seems to be done so often…. when people come to the ER with unrelated ailments, such as broken arms, liver malfunction, or gun-shot wounds, they are counted as “covid patients”, when the mandatory test after admission shows a “positive”

With this in mind, this study may be flawed

By mcfarm - Sept. 22, 2021, 7:30 p.m.
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as just an addition of more strange data. Fauci and co claimed a n=month ago when college football season opened these games would all be "spreader events" and the public should not be allowed to attend. Well the data is in for the month we have had big crowds at sec games in the southeast and Georgia, Florida and Ala have seen decreasing covid numbers. 

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 4:57 a.m.
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All Summer, I wasted hundreds of hours/posts responding to your junk science, cherry picked, anomalous, misinterpreted data, often from outlier sources and I  learned from the experiences that it truly was a waste of my valuable time. 

You have zero intention of learning anything from the posts....ZERO! that has objective, comprehensive data that shows the big/overall picture and authentic science that you totally object to because it came from sources like the CDC or government health departments or Fauci or the MSM.

Instead, you will only believe far right and similar sources, including outlier doctors, some that I've proven to be quacks.........It's like a religion and they preach the COVID gospel.

And you accuse the other side of doing.............exactly what you are doing only its even worse for your side because at least the other side understands how effective and safe the most critical tool we have to fight COVID with...........the vaccine is. They have alot of things wrong but at least they follow that authentic science which is saving many thousands of lives with 100%, absolute certainty. 

While you waste your intelligence wanting to believe dangerous, absurd crap like "the vaccine kills more people than COVID"

So these were your 2 previous total joke posts below that I didn't  waste more time responding to but will now, so I can do it effectively for all 3 of your junk science threads with this one response to be more efficient to address  your trolling of junk science without having it reinforced like it was by me all Summer with immediate rubutals that obliterated your junk science every time. ............which always continued into an endless debate with you always using the same anti science strategy as I outlined in the first paragraph and me enabling it by respectfully engaging with you by sincerely treating you as having credibility the first 200 times you used the same junk science tactics. 

These were your previous 2 threads:

                FDA rejects booster shots            

                            0 responses |          

                Started by GunterK - Sept. 21, 2021, 12:22 a.m.    

                FDA:  Booster shots not for everyone            

                            0 responses |          

                Started by GunterK - Sept. 21, 2021, 10:52 a.m.    

I'll respond to both those and this current thread on the next few pages with the same science and an explanation for the FDA's decision again, instead of you repeating the same ideas constantly on new threads, like you have done with the past 3, as you did with many of the previous 200 this last Summer,  requiring me to repeat the same authentic  science that hasn't changed each time. 

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 5:12 a.m.
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On the FDA decision. The title of the article that you called: "The FDA’s Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee voted 16-2 against booster shots for the general population"

was actually: "FDA panel recommends Pfizer’s Covid booster doses for people 65 and older after rejecting third shots for general population"

You apparently don't understand their reasoning 1 iota based on how you twisted it, so I'll clear that up. If you actually listened for the first time, I will be shocked.

1. The FDA advisory committee voted 18-0 to approve booster shots at 8 months for those 65+, with compromised immune systems, health issues and health care workers because that group started getting vaccinated in December and January and we barely have a few months of data FOR ONLY THOSE GROUPS to show what their immunity has waned  at 8 months. The FDA lives by data and based on that overwhelming real world data that ONLY EXISTS FOR THOSE GROUPS they unanimously voted for another shot, to go with the first 2 very effective shots because immunity drops, exactly like it does for the flu shots.

2. Those that are under 65 didn't even start getting shots until March/April and there is NO DATA for them after 8 months because there hasn't been enough time gone by's still just September, so they are waiting for the actual data to come in the next few months AND THEN they will approve the boosters for the rest of the population.

It's NOT as you and your sources want us to believe that the risk for the younger ages is higher than the benefits.......that's complete bullsheet.

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 5:23 a.m.
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On this statement in 2 of your threads:

"I am going to focus my remarks today on the elephant in the room that nobody likes to talk about: that the vaccines kill more people than they save"

metmike: If I was not extremely tolerant, didn't have a never censor policy and consider you my friend I would either censor/limit that constant crap that's KILLING THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE or ban you for continuing to repeat that complete, utter bullshit statement. In this case, I will respond to the last several days of it atthe same time.

This is the truth:


metmike: For the gazillionth time Gunter. The vaccine does NOT stop a person from getting COVID. It arms their immune system to greatly minimize the risk of  severe disease and death.

I counted your posts on this since June and there were over 200. Not one of them showed the truth about the safety and effectiveness of vaccines. Most of them were twisting and cherry picking data like this one does to try to convince yourself and others that the vaccines are not working, which is total bull......again. 

Read the article below. It's people exactly like you that are the reason the US fell behind much of the world with vaccinations and its resulting in many thousands of deaths that didn't have to happen. People like you need to take control of their brains back from the far right sited brainwashing you with bull crap.

The US was a world leader in vaccination. What went wrong?

        How most of Europe caught up to — and then surpassed — the US in their Covid-19 vaccine drives.

Another big difference that explains that divergence is one of culture and politics. Covid vaccinations have become, like so much of America’s pandemic response, polarized along political lines. As of July, 86 percent of Democrats said they were vaccinated, according to a Kaiser Family Foundation survey, while only 54 percent of Republicans said the same. One in five Republicans said they would “definitely not” get the vaccine.

“This political divide over vaccines has contributed to the US falling behind European countries when it comes to coverage levels,” Josh Michaud, associate director of global health policy at the Kaiser Family Foundation, told me.


By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 5:27 a.m.
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98.6% of the people in our local hospitals here in vanderburgh county with COVID in August were NOT vaccinated.

1.4% were vaccinated. What is the matter with you that you can’t/won’t comprehend what this means?

Those stats were compiled by honest people at the hospitals  and passed on thru honest people at our health department, who just like all the other sincere people in all the other counties of the US, are all devoted, patriotic people trying to save American lives. 

They are all trying to help us to beat COVID, just like metmike is. 

Sadly, we have a group of people that are passing on mis/DISinformation that are trying to sabotage that effort instead of helping us.

Making out these devoted people, who are battling COVID as being dishonest or having ulterior motives of trying to make money off of COVID or claiming that they are just  trying to control people by making them get vaccinated is pretty low and ignorant of what is really motivating us to act this way.

We want to save lives man. That’s the entire motivation, other than to educate people about authentic science in tandem with it.

You’re being very  paranoid, and following conspiracy theory bull. The places filling your head with these nutty ideas are not your friend. 

Do you need to get COVID and die to embrace the authentic science/facts?

I wouldn't want that to happen to you.

At least 7 conservative radio hosts and anti-mask advocates have died from COVID-19 after bashing the vaccines

"As COVID-19 cases continue to surge, nearly all of the COVID-19 deaths in the United States are among unvaccinated people, and misinformation around the virus and vaccines remains widespread."

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 5:40 a.m.
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I am NOT saying that other treatments don't work.

My wife and I are actually taking Ivermectin right now.

But this is just more of the one sided political bull, where each side insists that they are completely right about everything and the other side is completely wrong about everything.

One political side says that only vaccines work  and Ivermectin and other things don't work, which is half bs and is killing the least amount of people! Saving the most lives.

The other political side says only Ivermectin and the other supplements work-they do work...... and the vaccines are killing more people than COVID(which is half bs and the MUCH  more dangerous bs that's killing many thousands of people) .

What is this..............a friggin contest to see who can KILL the least amount people??

Can both political sides get together to SAVE the most lives.....PRETTY PLEASE WITH SUGAR ON TOP??

metmike and his wife don't belong to either COVID belief cult and can pick the items from both sides that work and reject all the bs from both sides.

But almost all Americans belong to one political side or the other and believe half the bull and believe half of the they are only getting half of the treatments. 

They are dying because of the politics. Not maybe dying but with absolute certainly, tens of thousands are greatly suffering, many are dying because of the false narratives and political rhetoric surrounding COVID, the treatments and the vaccines.

I will be updating my Ivermectin thread this week based on my wife and I taking it because she was exposed to COVID last week and has been sick all of this week.

                Ivermectin/how to get to the truth            

                            24 responses |             

                Started by metmike - Sept. 7, 2021, 4:10 p.m.    

By bear - Sept. 23, 2021, 1:42 p.m.
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just an interesting comparison... 2 countries... isreal, and india, have very similar pattern in their graphs... the surge late last year, and then the surge into summer (delta).  but one country has one of the highest vaccination rates in the world, and the other has one of the lower vaccination rates. 

makes it seem like vaccination rates did not have a significant impact on delta infection.  covid spread whether people are vaccinated or not.  

By GunterK - Sept. 23, 2021, 2:16 p.m.
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You wrote: “…You have zero intention of learning anything from the posts....ZERO! that has objective, comprehensive data that shows the big/overall picture and authentic science that you totally object to because it came from sources like the CDC or government health departments or Fauci or the MSM.   Instead, you will only believe far right and similar sources, including outlier doctors, some that I've proven to be quacks..”

Wow. In case you haven’t noticed, I have stopped posting links from sites that you don’t approve of… for the sake of keeping the peace on this forum.

Secondly, the subject of this thread is a study that does not come from the “far right” … it does come from a health department. As far as I know, you can’t find anything more “authentic” in the UK… and there are no “outlier” doctors mentioned in it.

Based on this, this post should have met your criteria for authenticity.

This study simply presents facts… it does not make any judgement or recommendations…. facts… only facts.

I have been reading some of their studies since June. The numbers in those studies were different, but their basic content was consistent. This study is not a “cherry-picked” abnormality. Some of these data may actually be called “pro-vaxx”.

The data I focused on was the subject of hospitalizations and deaths. I did so, because I have heard “talkingheads” stating that the vaxx still has a 80-88% efficiency of preventing hospitalization or death, without offering proof of their claims… and these factual data don’t match their claims …. and because of this, it is now cr-p.

And even if these talking heads had some kind of proof for their claims, there is nothing wrong with presenting factual data, even when they oppose the official story-line..

Isn’t it quite obvious by now, that this pandemic is not a black-and-white subject? We have a “pandemic of the unvaccinated” in the US, and a “pandemic of the vaccinated” in other countries.

You can collect one set of data here, and another set of data there. Nothing is set in stone. Yet, the team led by Dr Fauci sets themselves up as the supreme deity… only they have the “science”, everybody else is “against science”, or has “misinformation” or cr*p.

“science” is not supposed to work this way.

In conclusion, the data in the linked study still stand… nobody has proven them to be wrong.


You presented a story about 7 broadcasters who died of Covid. Is this story supposed to prove the study above as cr*p?  The story about the 7 broadcasters was click-bait for several news media. What about the 11,000+ people who have died immediately after receiving their jab???? (that was as of early July.I don’t know what the numbers are now)

If you remember, Dr Cole asked the very logical question… why is this being swept under the rug? Why is there no official inquiry?  Of course, in your eyes, Dr. Cole is a quack.


You made reference to my post about the FDA decision regarding booster shots.  In this post, I never made any comments about “risks for the younger generation”, as you accused me of.  I made a simple statement, saying that the FDA decided against giving it to the “general population”. The FDA’s decision to whom they wanted to give booster shots ( the elderly, etc) was clearly spelled out in the link I provided

The FDA had assembled a panel of experts they trusted, to make a decision. One of them was a person who spoke of the vaccine killing people.

Since I mentioned this person (who was obviously trusted by the FDA), this makes my whole post a “joke” to you.  Maybe we should call the FDA a “joke” for even inviting such experts to their panel


I even offered an “olive branch” at the end of my original post…. admitting that the data in this study may be flawed.

Indeed, there have been investigations going on claiming that a large majority of “Covid hospitalizations” are people who came to the ER with other problems, and were registered as Covid-hospitalizations, when the mandatory PCR test showed a “positive’ after admission (hey, that’s nothing new… we saw a Health Department in the US order their hospital doctors to fake the data, when the virus first arrived... and there is video taped proof that even today data manipulation is not just a conspiracy theory).

If it could be verified that a good portion of the subjects of the above study came to the ER for non-Covid reasons, I would be the first one to call the above study worthless B.S..

Of course, it would also invalidate most of the graphs you present.

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 2:41 p.m.
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"Of course, it would also invalidate most of the graphs you present"

Not surprised that you think cherry picking data invalidates the vast majority of the data.........the REST OF THE DATA. You can't invalidate accurately measured and recorded observational empircal data Gunter. It happened. 

98.6% of people sick with COVID in our county were NOT vaccinated in August. 7 far right talk show hosts that were anti vaxx, got COVID and died because of it. All the other MASSIVE authentic data that defines the science is just like that. It really happened and was recorded.

Finding an anomoloy doesn't make all the other data........GO AWAY!

Because a couple of people in the FDA disagreed with the vast majority on decisions DOES NOT mean we should believe the tiny minority that disagreed. 

Your position is worse than weak on this. It's anti science. Anti statistics. Anti real world,. Anti COVID vaccine. Anti government. Anti Fauci. Anti CDC. Anti WHO. Anti Biden. Anti anything from the democrats.

How about getting on board to try to save lives instead of trying to rebel against authorities that you don't like because you line up with the far right agenda?

Put the politics aside to help save American lives please.

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 3:02 p.m.
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And your cherry picks are always touted as the latest data to negate all my old data. And every single one of them is anti COVID vaccine.

 The more data we get the more it confirms the authentic science and rejects the cherry picks.

 Finding other countries that have totally different dynamics to use as proof, only shows that there were some different dynamics. One of which is related to treatment. I'm a strong advocate for very early treatment, including Ivermectin. Great but here in the US, we have an apples to apples comparison based purely on the VACCINATION RATES that tells us conclusively how the vaccinations are massively  affecting and benefiting people. That's the non cherry picked authentic data that MUST be applied to the true understanding of vaccinations in the United States.

Early treatment DOES NOT replace vaccinations. That's narrative is dangerous, people killing advise.

Why do you continually refuse to acknowledge the data like this below? Never an explanation from you........just go on to the next cherry pick from some other country or anomalous data set or statement from an outlier doctor telling us early treatments are important and sometimes totally whacked out speculative theories about how the vaccine are every killing more people than the lives..........that the data shows are being saved.......EVERY TIME!

This is from yesterday.

Covid-19 death rate more than 4 times higher in least vaccinated states than in most vaccinated

By Madeline Holcombe and Deidre McPhillips, CNN

Updated 12:38 AM ET, Wed September 22, 2021

"The average rate of Covid-19 deaths in the 10 least vaccinated states was more than four times higher over the past week than the rate in the 10 most vaccinated states, according to a CNN analysis. 

In the least vaccinated states, roughly eight people out of every 100,000 residents died of Covid-19 over the past week, compared with only about two out of every 100,000 people in the 10 most vaccinated states.

CNN used data from Johns Hopkins University and the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention for the analysis. 

Less vaccinated states tend to have higher hospitalization rates, too. 

The latest data from the US Department of Health and Human Services shows an average of 39 Covid-19 hospitalizations per 100,000 people in the 10 least vaccinated states, nearly three times higher than the average rate of 14 per 100,000 people in the 10 most vaccinated states. 

The states with the lowest vaccination rates have fully vaccinated less than 45% of their residents. They are Alabama, Arkansas, Georgia, Idaho, Louisiana, Mississippi, North Dakota, Tennessee, West Virginia and Wyoming."

metmike: All those states are RED states that think just like you Gunter and no, this is not click's called the latest, overwhelming authentic data that proves the science.

Ironically, it should be the other way around like it was BEFORE that vaccinations. The densely populated areas should be having the highest COVID because of tranmission dynamics. But the smarter city folks decided to believe in the urban politics of getting vaccinated and the not so vaccine smart rural folks, mostly far right political belief system are refusing to get vaccinated...............and are paying a hefty price. Dying at a 4 times higher rate.

This is like far right republican suicide by ignorance! OMG what is the matter with these people????

It's not like I'm not spelling it out clearly and proving it irrefutably over and over here but nothing gets thru!

Take back control of your brains and get vaccinated to greatly increase your chance of surviving COVID and the lives of people around you.......and THEIR LIVES MATTER TOO, so you MUST think about them if you care about America and the Americans that live here ........PLEASE!!

By metmike - Sept. 23, 2021, 5:16 p.m.
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The smart people are looking for when they can get their booster, 3rd shot............others haven't even taken their first 2 shots.

CDC panel authorizes COVID-19 vaccine boosters for high-risk people, those over 65

"The CDC panel unanimously voted 15-0 to recommend a booster dose for Americans age 65 and older and people in long term care facilities. It also fully recommended giving a single booster dose to people between the ages of 50 and 64 with certain high risk conditions, by a vote of 13-2.

The agency's Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP) was more divided on the third question of whether to recommend — based on individual benefit and risk — a booster dose for people between the ages of 18 and 49. The recommendation narrowly passed by a vote of 9 to 6."

metmike: The under 50 crowd didn't start getting vaccinated until the Spring and there isn't enough data to use for them as with the older folks that started in December. This will be revisited later this year, when there's is more data and they will likely be more inclusive with their recommendations at that time.