I want to spend a great deal of time discussing this because, despite us having 1+ trillion times more information at our fingertips (compared to 100 years ago) that should be making ALL of us much, MUCH smarter and well over half of us doing that, a very significant portion of the information its actually making people dumber, especially in political realms.
Let’s start by stating that I’m an independent, objective scientist that does not belong to either party. My reason to be here is to educate/enlighten readers in realms that I can share my knowledge in, as well as learning as much as I can, including from others here and from other sources. Comments from all are welcome, especially those that disagree with me……who are encouraged to post their respected/respectful thoughts that disagree with mine.
How do we know what is true and not true?
A fact or an opinion?
1. It’s almost impossible to know, if the person telling you something knows much more than you.
2. So it’s important to be objectively informed.
3. Here is the mistake that most people make about being informed. If you are 60 years old, for instance you’ve been around long enough to already have strong opinions on most things. Those opinions and preconceived notions/cognitive bias will usually determine how you interpret the world and its information. That being the case, people will almost always limit their sources to those that line up with THEIR truths. There are an unlimited number of those sources in politics available, describing to us the complete opposite realities for the Ds compared to the Rs for instance.
Sometimes they are both partially right and wrong. Sometimes 1 side is exactly right and the other 1 is completely wrong.
If we affiliate strongly with 1 side OUR truth is different than another persons truth from the other party and human nature compels us to get ALL of our information at sites that we’ve decided tell us what OUR truth is.
We store that as knowledge in our brains to bolster our confidence in what we already believe (Our truths) and reject all the stuff that contradicts it.
When there are diametrically opposed, polar opposite opinions and the information available to support both sides BUT only 1 side is using authentic facts based on empirical data and evidence and the other side is using convincing sounding, manufactured realities or twisted interpretations, what happens?
1 side that goes to their sources becomes more and more informed and gets smarter. The other side goes to their sources, that line up with what THEY WANT TO BELIEVE and gets dumber and more convinced with time that they are right, to the point that they can no longer even recognize the truth anymore when it’s laid out on a silver platter to them.
Both sides do it to some extent but I’ll show some explicit examples of it happening today from 1 side.
There actually is a simple and effective way to prevent us from succumbing to this cognitive bias principle of human nature. It’s not easy.
Instead of only fact checking or rejecting all the stuff that your cognitive bias, from decades of forming tells you is false, FACT CHECK ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU THINK ARE TRUE AND THAT YOU WANT TO BELIEVE IN!
Its actually what using the scientific method is all about.
Its very tough to do and for the vast majority of people…..impossible.
Fortunately, I know how to do it and try my best to sincerely practice it but still cant help searching for answers using biased questions or favoring those that line up with my personal, impossible to shake bias.
We all have TREMENDOUS bias. Recognizing that is the first and most important step in overcoming most of it. Never all of it because we grew up with decades of experiences that created it. We can never wipe that slate clean and start over.
The objective should be to sincerely try to understand why other people we disagree with feel the way they do.
when practicing the scientific method, you actually make an assumption that they are right and YOU are wrong AND THEN look again at things using authentic facts with THEIR mindset.
If the authentic facts take you to the same place, ONLY THEN can you have confidence in being right.
Many times, this fact checking of your own beliefs causes you to learn new things. Nobody is right all the time about everything, especially in politics.
This means that EVERYBODY can learn new things by consistently fact checking their sources and their political belief system.
Sadly, that is getting harder and harder to do because more and more sites exist with fake news, lies, propaganda and disinformation. But especially because it’s extremely unpleasant psychologically and no fun.
We like to go to sites that reinforce our belief systems. It’s reassuring that we belong to the right party/tribe. Living our lives using principles that define what’s most important in the world.
The thing that most often causes people to reject authentic facts, empirical data and evidence is their inability to tell the difference between those facts and their WRONG opinions because of blinding cognitive bias.
What often happens is that THEIR belief system completely blinds them from recognizing authentic facts. When they are wrong about something based on the authentic facts, what often happens is that they refer to/think of the authentic facts that disagree with them, as only being OPINIONS so that they can justify THEIR (WRONG) OPINIONS getting the same weighting based on what THEY want to believe.
Let's provide a ton of examples to demonstrate the difference.
1. A weather forecast for 5 days from now is an opinion. At 4 days from now, it's still an opinion.
3-2-1 day from now, still an opinion even though it becomes a higher confidence opinion. 1 day AFTER that day, the weather becomes a rock solid authentic fact that stays in the record books forever. There may be differences in how individuals perceive hot vs cold or stormy but a high of 72 degrees with .5" of rain are indisputable metrics of empirical data that measure authentic facts. Anybody that disagrees with those authentic facts has a right to their wrong opinions but they are still WRONG.
2. A forecast for the price of November soybeans this Summer is an opinion in the month of March. The price for this coming Monday is an opinion. The closing price on Friday, March 13, 2026 is an authentic fact using a well accepted metric. Anybody that disagrees with that authentic fact has a right to their WRONG opinion but they are still WRONG!
3. The prediction of the winner/score of the Ohio State vs Michigan football game this November 2026 is an opinion, even at half time of the game its still an opinion. The day after the game and for the rest of history, the winner and score is an authentic fact that goes in the history books. Anybody that has an opinion that disagrees with the score or who won because their team lost has a right to have their wrong opinion but THEY ARE WRONG!
4. The predictions for this Novembers elections and polls are all opinions. The day after the elections, the results are authentic facts. Even in disputed elections with recounts, the winners quickly become authentic facts in the real world for every reasonable person. If somebody is still insisting they won the 2020 election, in march 2026, that isn't an opinion. It's a lie. If people believe the lie instead of the authentic data and empirical evidence they have a right to their wrong opinion but are flat out wrong. They have the right to believe in wrong things and call it an opinion because they don't want to believe THE TRUTH but that still means they're wrong. Believing the opposite of things that have already been indisputably proven with empirical data/evidence and authentic facts doesn't make them viable opinions. They are wrong as having the opinion that the earth is flat or that that Neil Armstrong walking on the moon in July 1969 was faked.
5. When the missiles struck the girls school 2 weeks ago, there were different opinions about where the missiles came from. After satellite and other pictures(as well as recovering huge pieces of the missiles at the site) showed they were Tomahawk missiles and only the United States was using them that day, it became the defining authentic fact that the United States was responsible. If Donald Trump wants to say that the missiles came from Iran, that's a blatant like, not an opinion. He has more indisputable proof than all of us. If people who believe everything that Donald Trump says, use his lie to form their opinion that Iran bombed the girls school..........they have a proven wrong opinion. They are WRONG!
6. When the Wall Street Journal published a story about the birthday card that Donald Trump authored and gave to Jeffrey Epstein and Donald Trump insisted there was no such card, there were VALID OPINIONS from people on both side about whether to believe Donald Trump or to believe the conservative, Wall Street Journal with the same owner as Fox News.
It was no longer an opinion and became an authentic fact when the Epstein estate released all the birthday wishes/cards/letters that had been locked up in the estate for 2 decades. The card from Donald Trump was there, exactly as the Wall Street Journal described it, along with his signature that exactly matched his signatures in signing other documents. It was the quintessential empirical evidence or authentic fact to prove indisputably that the card was authored by Donald Trump. Donald Trump lying and insisting that it wasn't from him is NOT an opinion. It's still a blatant lie no matter how many times that lie is repeated. People believing Donald Trump's lie is a choice to ignore all the authentic facts and believe only the lie because they want the lie to be true. That doesn't make it a credible opinion. Believing in a lie can be an opinion. Believing in the person lying can be an opinion but it's an opinion that gets 0% weighting when the authentic facts and empirical evidence already indisputably proved the truth.
The only way that the card did not come from Donald Trump is if somebody had a time machine and went back 20 years to plant a card with the rest of the sealed Epstein estate and used a perfectly forged signature as well as using verbiage that Donald Trump has used in the past. Since that is impossible, people believing that are wrong. They choose to believe a lie because they don't want the authentic evidence to be true.
There is no other "alternative reality" Repeating the lie, even 1 billion times still makes it a lie. And Donald Trump filing a lawsuit for 5 billion dollars against the Wall Street Journal or even 5 quadrillion dollars doesn't make it anything other than a lie. It's makes Donald Trump a liar that thinks he can bully the Wall Street Journal which is extremely delusional. People that believe what Donald Trump is claiming have a right to their indisputably proven wrong opinions but it will always be wrong based on the basic standards of empirical evidence and authentic facts.
7. Believing that Donald Trump was exonerated by the Epstein files is an opinion to believe a lie and ignore the authentic evidence. As there are an incredible number of times that Donald Trump is mentioned in the Epstein Files and the DOJ refuses to release almost half of the files (the ones with investigations into the pedophiles, including Donald Trump) and there is tons of evidence to prove he was Jeffrey Epstein's best friend and they shared an interest in women/girls. THAT is the authentic evidence and facts. An opinion to NOT believe that doesn't validate that opinion. Believing in invisible Martians under your bed is also not a valid opinion. Since they are invisible, you can always claim that it's still possible but when all the evidence, empirical data and authentic facts point in the opposite direction, that opinion is WRONG!
Donald Trump's exoneration page:
At the thread below, there are numerous posts/quote that exemplify(stated with different verbiage) these principles:
Quote of the day Nov 2021/February 2024
130 responses |
Started by metmike - Nov. 2, 2021, 10:52 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77011/
I picked out several of the quotes that I personally made which communicate these principles with my own verbiage.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Quote of the day November 2022
"The brain cannot recognize the authentic truth when that person's truth has been defined as the complete opposite!"
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/91128/#91172
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https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/92447/#92453
Propaganda is only propaganda to those that see exactly what it is.
To the rest........it defines their truth.
That's what makes it so dang effective and it doesn't just effect people that are slow to understand.
One key factor is that it exploits the cognitive bias that we all have in us.
People will fact check things that they don't want to believe but give a free pass to things that they want to believe!
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Quote of the day July 2023
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/97436/#97482
"When given the choice between a lie and the truth in politics, most people will pick the one that they want to believe…….THEN, permanently process all new information based on assumptions related to that.
They will believe everything that lines up with what they’ve decided to believe and reject information that contradicts what they’ve decided to believe."
"We all have free will and one would hope that a better understanding of the process described above would assist some people to use it to think more objectively and independently to be less controlled by their political party information gatekeepers that are using them."
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Re: Re: Re: Quote of the day December 2023
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100974/#100992
1. We learn MUCH MORE when discovering things that WE DIDN'T KNOW and CORRECTING things that we thought that we knew based on flawed thinking in a political ideology. This requires having an open mind!
2. We learn very little by having things that we think that we know repeated over and over to reassure us that we are right about everything.
The path with #2 is the easy road. The path with #1 is much tougher and often psychologically painful but always the most rewarding because it ALWAYS results in the most growth for us as human beings.
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Re: Re: Re: Quote of the day JUNE 2024
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/105094/#105095
"It's not good to only go to places that tell you what you want to hear(echo chambers) even if those sources are solid and authentic.
In doing that, you lose the ability to see the perspective of the WRONG side. In losing that perspective, you further lose any opportunity to share your enlightenment because you first have to understand what it is and why it is that defines their thinking in order to ENGAGE, hopefully in a positive way to share with them what they are missing and what you are seeing clearly.
It's also good too because none of us are always right and political parties both have lots of things wrong.
How can we ever know when we are wrong or when our party is wrong if we only surround ourselves with like minded people and like minded sources giving our right and wrong thoughts with equal reinforcement?
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This was NOT my quote:
“Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. It is easy for the weak to be gentle. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power. This is the supreme test. It is the glory of Lincoln that, having almost absolute power, he never abused it, except on the side of mercy.”
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95404/#95525
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Re: Re: Quote of the day May 2023
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/95310/#95339
When people really WANT to believe something, almost no amount of profoundly overwhelming evidence contradicting it will change that. Their brain interprets the truth as a Lie. Their brains have been taught to believe a lie is the truth from repetition. Their brains are unable to recognize things which contradict how their brains define the truth Because those things are automatically rejected based on their brains previously framed realities. Most of the time, once that brain has been taught to believe in something, especially if its a tenant of a belief system …you can bombard that person with authentic contradicting facts to kingdom come but it’s a waste of time!
Cognitive bias: What it is and how to overcome it
https://www.betterup.com/blog/cognitive-bias
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Neither political party has a franchise on the truth.
If you believe one party all the time......................you will believe in lies some of the time.
metmike, MarketForum
The perfect example of this principle is demonstrated right here at MarketForum all the time
mcfarm, who is very strongly aligned with MAGA has accused me of having TDS(Trump Derangement Syndrome) so many dozens of times that I can't even estimate. All because I use authentic facts to debunk his MAGA stuff.
While patrick, who is from the other tribe accuses me of being a brainwashed MAGA believer because my authentic facts contradicted HIS belief system which is the opposite of MAGA, so to discredit my authentic facts, he did what so many people do(exactly as described in the posts above)........make false accusations and attacks on me, claiming that my objective, independently derived truths using authentic facts using the scientific method....are not really my work at all. It's MAGA sources that have stolen my intelligence/captured my brain.
Thanks mcfarm and patrick for unintentionally but profoundly demonstrating the quintessential examples that are being discussed in this thread.
Re: Re: Soaring fertilizer prices
By patrick - March 17, 2026, 4:19 p.m.
Re: Re: Re: Soaring fertilizer prices
By metmike - March 17, 2026, 6:23 p.m.
Re: Re: Re: Re: Soaring fertilizer prices
By patrick - March 17, 2026, 8:16 p.m.
By metmike - March 17, 2026, 9:48 p.m.
By patrick - March 18, 2026, 8:33 p.m.
Re: Re: Soaring fertilizer prices
By metmike - March 18, 2026, 9:47 p.m.
There is only 1 metmike on MarketForum.
Patrick states this(entire posts on previous page):
By patrick - March 18, 2026, 8:33 p.m.
"The needed next step is rejecting the MAGA nonsense you absorbed in the past 10 years. The hardest part of that cleansing is to reconsider the parts you convinced yourself were your own insights, not a repackaging of the lies they so thickly spread."
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That same metmike posting on the same MarketForum gets these comments the past several months from somebody actually in MAGA:
March 10, 2026, 6:07 p.m.
mcfarm
thanks for the maga this or that....don't be silly after all the multitude of (bad) things you have said about Maga there is only one to take...as an insult. Own up to it.
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March 10, 2026, 1:43 p.m.
mcfarm
thankyou very much for the progressive, ultra liberal, left leaning cnn style of posting
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March 8, 2026, 8:42 p.m.
mcfarm
MM what sources other than Iranian lies did you use?
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March 3, 2026, 3:36 p.m.
mcfarm
again the point flew right over your TDS.
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Feb. 28, 2026, 10:05 a.m.
mcfarm
What TDS can do to people who ordinarily have sense. "Trump suddenly bombed Iran" by MM. Dear MM.
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Jan. 4, 2026, 12:20 p.m.
mcfarm
Look MM I really do not care how much you hate or the crazed resources you use to rationalize this hate "CNN and Brennan" being 2 sources only a far left radical would ever consider.
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Jan. 3, 2026, 6:29 p.m.
metmike
John Brennan??? John Brennan WTF??? John Brennan. MM, You really have reached the point of no return. The hate has so taken your mind and the 13 others that watch CNN that you know use John Brennan as a reliable source.
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Dec. 23, 2025, 10:38 a.m.
mcfarm
well here is more Maga in your sufferring TDS mind.
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Dec. 21, 2025, 7:12 a.m.
mcfarm
I see Mm is still suffering from TDS so what's new.
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Nov. 18, 2025, 1:48 p.m.
mcfarm
Now on to another bitch of your TDS. Cannot find it at this moment but you had screed about 20 billion to a SA country. You were so ill that day you stated a few inaccuracies that need to be corrected
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Nov. 9, 2025, 3:47 p.m.
mcfarm
I will bet you and thousands of your U of M brothers on the left never once considered or advocated to just "move on" after Watergate was exposed
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Nov. 1, 2025, 8:02 a.m.
mcfarm
Every day in most every way MM your hateful emotions rule your mind
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Sept. 19, 2025, 10 a.m.
mcfarm
now you have fallen in deeper with the sad sad left and their total and complete acquiescence to the wacko far left.
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Sept. 18, 2025, 5:38 p.m.
mcfarm
I guess TDS now could led to delusion MM. Just to give a realistic answer and get you out of the weeds you have been wondering in
Both those posters are always welcome here and they can continue to post whatever way they want as I highly doubt either one of them is capable of changing their minds or even seeing the points in this thread based on recent conversations but we can always hope!
However, they both make positive contributions at times here which we greatly appreciate. I have learned a few things from both of them.
I am also grateful that we were able to use their recent, closed minded posting as a teachable moment for others.
To demonstrate the profound points in this thread. Those points are anything but hypothetical or unusual. They are happening right now on forums, SOCIAL MEDIA, emails, television, newspapers and CONVERSATIONS.........almost everywhere.
Our morally bankrupt politicians, especially the president are setting the worst imaginable example. What do we expect from people living in a country that elected a person like Donald Trump. That have a majority in Congress that enable him and have given all their power to him?
I realize that the majority of people do NOT support him or how the current majority party is letting him destroy our country in numerous ways. We/they have the opportunity to fire those people this November.
Other major messaging gatekeepers like Fox news spew out tribalistic, biased hatred that tells lies that their viewers want to hear. It's not surprising that those same people who enjoy receiving messages like that would also use a similar way to communicate their own messages.
People in our age of human history are losing the ability to think objectively and think critically. To respect other people and their views. They only go to sources that reinforce what they want to be true and condemn, attack and vilify everybody with a different opinion WITHOUT EVER LOOKING AT THEIR FACTS.
It would be sad if, in this discussion that I didn't provide a MUCH BETTER WAY!
Hate(and love)
Started by metmike - Oct. 17, 2023, 4:15 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/99752/
Along the same lines, let's share some wonderful quotes again:
Quote of the day Nov 2021/February 2024
130 responses |
Started by metmike - Nov. 2, 2021, 10:52 p.m.
https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/77011/
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We live in the best age of human history for technology, science, medicine, entertainment, nutrition/food, agriculture, educational opportunities and more. By a very wide margin. Those things have advanced more in the last 150 years than they had the previous 15,000 years of human history.
However, we have regressed in the realm discussed in the thread BECAUSE OF powerful advancements in technology that attract us to things that develop negative attributes.
What these 2 posters in our previous, real world MarketForum example are doing is a form of a "straw-man attack".
mcfarm constantly insists that I'm wrong because I have TDS(Trump derangement Syndrome). Assigning the entire reason for my position from hating Donald Trump and having nothing to do with the authentic facts presented in my post. That way, he never has to deal with the authentic facts which he's always unable to refute other than manufactured narratives(lies) from MAGA/Donald Trump and calling me MAGA or getting all my views from far left sources........because in his mind, that destroys my credibility and discredits anything I state that disagrees with him.
Same thing with Patrick. Only in his case, the entire reason for my position that disagrees with his opinion, according to him is that I've been brainwashed from being in MAGA for 10 years. That way, he doesn't have to deal with the authentic facts that completely contradict what he wants to believe. He is completely unable to refute those authentic facts and instead repeats propaganda that I completely debunked with the authentic facts and calls me MAGA because being MAGA destroys my credibility for him.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man#Steelmanning
A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction.[1] One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".
When people behave like this in disagreements, this the best way to act, in my view.x
1. Assume initially that they MIGHT be right(even if you're positive they are wrong). Look at their side and fact check your position. It's the scientific method.
2. You may uncover something(s) that you were unaware of which means it’s time to adjust at least part of your position and thank them for it. This is one of the ways we can learn new things. No matter how smart a person is, they are not always right and don’t know everything.
3. If the fact check, with an open, objective mind reinforces your initial position, then share that with the other person in a different, RESPECTFUL, non judgmental way to sincerely try to help them to understand........if they want to understand.
4. If they actually listen and learn something, than good for you and even better for them. This is extraordinarily hard to do.
5. If they respond by calling you a name(s), demean or mischaracterize you or claim your sources aren't valid because only their sources are good, while being unable to refute your authentic facts...........Congratulations!!!! That means you just won the argument. They will never acknowledge this but if they instead, had authentic facts to defend their position, they would have used those instead of resorting to the other tactics to try to upset or demean you.
6. If you respond in kind, then YOU just lost. Not only the high ground but also the original position that was based on authentic facts. By engaging with them at this new lower level, you are playing THEIR game. If you allow their tactics to upset you, THEIR tactics worked and they won.
7. Move on to some other topic where the 2 of you can agree or the other person is not threatened because you have a different view than them.
8. Or just move on and don't let it bother you 1 iota. Be extra proud if you fought off the temptation to attack, call names or mischaracterize.
9. This can be hard to do if you're in the habit of arguing with people to try to prove yourself right, no matter what. After awhile it becomes habit and you will always feel much better after you withdrew from a TOXIC conversation than you do by sustaining it by giving the other person what you think they deserve or what you think will convince them.
10. Even though they will NEVER recognize that you won in every way, that's on them. In the long run, you are much, MUCH more likely to preserve the integrity of good friendships by practicing this and the other person will respect you much more, even if they continue to be convinced that they are right and you are wrong.
11. NEVER assume in relationships that the other person has to give their 50% or it’s unfair. Especially in a marriage. People have different gifts and many of us are blessed with abilities that allow us to give MORE than 50%. We wouldn't expect a 5 year old child to give as much as they take. Some people, even at 35 are not very good givers. Remember that the more we give, usually the more we get in return . Don't let yourself be used or abused, of course. If you’re not getting anything in return for your giving.............give someplace else. The world is full of people that are profoundly grateful to others that help them or treat them kindly and with respect.
When in public with strangers, for instance, what happens usually when we smile and say hi to a person we don't know? You just brightened up their world for a few seconds and most often, they will smile and say hi back to you...........and thus your reward!
It's that simple!
But you/we have to start it in most cases.
If you go to the grocery store and ignore 20 people you pass by, like most folks, how many will say hi to you? Maybe 0?
The next time in that same store, say hi to 10 of them while smiling..
How many will say hi back with a smile?
Maybe 9?
Just think, Patrick could be doing this to strangers that are MAGA with the 2 of them Smiling at each other and not realizing that they are from different tribes and supposed to be political enemies.
And mcfarm might exchange smiles with somebody that hates Donald Trump because they are both human beings.