I agree with you, joj. This is a great point.

That is an abuse of the term, genocide,  in order to use it to vilify the actions of a group they disagree with to try to attach diabolical objectives that don’t exist.

Based on actions since Oct. 7th, it seems clear that Israel places less value on the innocent lives of people living in Gaza than on themselves and what most of the world considers their value to be.

But their objective, I think  is not to maximize the death toll of those innocent people to wipe them out.

Its possible that rage/revenge and hatred is playing a big role and thAt is partly fueling the current justification of their current war atrocity (along with the understandable desire to permanently neutralize Hamas or face more attacks in the futire).

The saddest thing is that the entire world, including 2 BILLION  Muslims is watching the horrible events in Gaza in real time, some on the other side of the planet and using it as the entire basis to justify an extreme mentality of hatred directed at people that don’t have anything to do with the really bad decisions causing these war atrocities.

And those people have already made up their minds, which means  all new information that bolsters what they think they know or what they want to believe…..like this being genocide will be accepted and stored as knowledge because it lines up with what their minds define as THEIR truth.

And we know what inspires extreme/radical Muslim groups hell bent on destroying their enemies.

THIS DOES!

Every day this continues in Gaza is another day for an optimal breeding ground that maximizes and adds to the hate dynamic directed at  Jews and Muslims around the world.

And there’s no credible entities stepping in to chill things out. Biden and company are actually trying and I give them some credit but he has no credibility with me or most of the world.

And it’s an impossible situation. The political Rs are bashing Biden for trying to help Gaza, which he should, as being a traitor to Israel. Fox news is spewing constant anti Muslim stuff. 

Levin, for instance insists that people like me are part of an evil pro Hamas element in the US, trying to destroy Israel. Seriously, this guy is a conspiracy theory wack job.

BOTH SIDES want everybody to pick just 1 side and interpret all information, 100% to support only that side and ignore the humanity and legit positions(of the other side) ….based on a tunnel vision view/closed mind view that justifies intense hatred for the other side.

What is greatly amplifying this hate dynamic in 2023 is the advanced technologies on the internet that includes social media platforms which spread the hate messages.

Think about it.

How many headlines do we read about or messages on social media that profess loving our neighbor, even just trying to understand and get along with people we disagree with?

Fox news has gone openly/blatant, hateful  Islamophobic as a marketing strategy that intentionally is used to contrast themselves as the Pro Israel station as opposed to what they falsely depict as the other pro Muslim, Hamas supporting entities(which, according to them-metmike would be).

To put this into relatable terms.

I am pretty outraged at what Israel is doing to 2 million people in Gaza right now.

Let's say that before this, I didn't have a fondness and respect for Israel and Jewish people and like many(influenced by the media with hateful, rampant anti Antisemitism) allowed it to impact my view of Jews everywhere and used it against all of them.........accompanied by the hate that goes along with that.

This is going on right now in, possibly billions of minds, realizing that the world has 2 billion Muslims.

But let's say one of them was me and that I didn't know joj and WeatherFollower here as thoughtful, intelligent, objective and ethical friends.

But I did know that they are Jews. 

Then, I could be like 10s of millions of others that distrusted and even hated them entirely based on not knowing them, personally.

The saddest thing about it would be that they are already suffering MUCH more than anybody else reading this because of the nightmare/impossible to resolve quagmire their cherished state of Israel is facing for the foreseeable future.

ON TOP OF THAT, they have to deal with venom spewing in their direction(just reading about widespread antisemitism can be painful to a Jew even if they personally are not being attacked!!!!).

And then, if me or others here that didn't really know them well, made some offensive or hurtful PERSONAL remarks that they read.

That is not a hypothetical. It's  the reality of what's  going on X a million in our world. 

Nobody here has posted anything except pro Israel stuff (except for my condemning the leadership committing these atrocities to Gaza)

People are doing the exact same thing regarding hate speech and thoughts about Muslims.

99% of the world's Muslims are good people and are not Hamas. The Palestinians do have a just cause and people that make a case for it are not evil and do not all hate Jews.

Sadly some do hate Israel because of that(and impose that on all Jews everywhere) because the truth is, Palestinians have been getting crapped on for a very long time by Israel.

And let's say that joj or Larry were vehemently defending everything that Israel ever did(just the opposite of their opend minded positions) and I intensely disagreed with and had heated arguments with them over it. 

And outside of that 1 strong disagreement, everything else about them and everything else about me was the same.

To that I say:

And I would add:

Don't hate people that you don't know and don't hate people for things they had nothing to do with!

Actually, TRY not to hate them for things you know about them and TRY not to hate them for things they had something to do with!!

White House announces plans for anti-Islamophobia strategy

https://fox2now.com/news/politics/white-house-announces-plans-for-anti-islamophobia-strategy/

Bernie Sanders refuses to condemn Tlaib comments deemed 'antisemitic'

 Tlaib has faced backlash from other Michigan Democrats in recent days

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bernie-refuses-to-condemn-tlaib-comments-deemed-anti-semitic

Appearing on CNN's "State of the Union," Sanders was shown a clip of recent Tlaib remarks in which the Michigan Democrat accuses Israel of committing "genocide" in Gaza and asked about her controversial use of the phrase "from the river to the sea," which host Dana Bash pointed out is considered an "antisemitic" rallying cry by the Anti-Defamation League.

"What's going on right now is a horror show," Sanders, I-Vt., said in response to the clip. "We don't have to quibble about words. Thousands of men, women and children are being killed. It has got to end right now."

DEM MICHIGAN AG CALLS OUT TLAIB FOR 'CRUEL' AND HATEFUL' ISRAEL COMMENTS

THANK YOU, JOJ!!!!!

I TOTALLY AGREE!

Mike, 

You have a Western mindset (so do I).  And it is natural to conclude that Israel's harsh measures against Palestinians are fertile soil for recruiting future militants.  But I'd like to push back on that with some real-life counterexamples.

Do you recall the Abu Ghraib prison and the horrific scandal that the US forces, under the direction of Rumsfeld, tortured 1000s of innocent Iraqis to try and get useful intel?  Everyone from the West was shocked, as they should have been.  I certainly was.  And, I expected mass rioting to break out in the Arab world as well as the Muslim world at large.  The reaction was surprisingly muted.  Contrast that event with a Danish Cartoonist who depicted Muhammad in a disrespectful manner.  The result was widespread violent protests in the Muslim world resulting in 100s of deaths:

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/10-years-later

Similarly, Salmon Rushdie created a firestorm with the publication of "Satanic Verses", which was deemed irreverent to the prophet Muhammed.   A death sentence (fatwa) was put on his head by the Ayatollah.

Ariel Sharon, the former right-wing PM of Israel caused rioting by visiting Muslim holy sites:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2000/sep/29/israel

Fast forward to the current conflict.  The rallying cry for Hamas was not "justice for the Palestinians".  That is the Western mindset.  The timing of the start of this war by Hamas was perhaps orchestrated by Iran to squash the emerging peace possibilities between Sunni Saudi Arabia and Israel.  But the actual rallying cry was that "The Jews are desecrating the Al Aksa mosque in Jerusalem.  (That is a complete and total lie). THAT is how you rile up the militants.  Most of the Arab Muslim world believes with 100% certainty that the Jews have absolutely no ties to Jerusalem and the land of Israel.  Jerusalem is mentioned in the Old Testament over 500 times.  It is mentioned in the New Testament 7 times.  It is mentioned in the Koran just once.

Hamas blocks the civilians' escape to south Gaza because they believe that their deaths will send them to heaven as martyrs.  They actually believe that.  

You and I have a Western mindset.  I would caution you projecting that on the fundamentalist Arab/Muslim mindset.

HYPOTHETICAL QUESTION.... "IF YOU WALKED IN YOUR HOUSE & SAW 10 "MEN" TAKING TURNS WITH YOUR WIFE ~ MOTHER ~ DAUGHTER, AND YOU HAD THE MEANS TO ~ WHAT WOULD YOU DO?  TAKE THEM ALL OUT, OR... JUST THE PRESENT ONE ON TOP YOUR LOVED ONE... BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T ACTUALLY WITNES,S BUT THE ONE?"

Thank, Jean!

Your hypothetical relates to the similarity on the day of the violent crimes, when the criminals were at those locations at the scence of the horrific crimes and separated from the general population while they did the crimes and shortly afterwards.

I would be for shooting every one of them stone cold dead right then and there and ask questions later. 

However, let me assist  you with a more accurate analogy to whats actually been happening in Gaza using your example.

Same situation you described only every one of  the rapists get away, like Hamas did on October 7th.

Then, like Israel did after Oct. 7, you immediately start killing people in all of the 10 massive neighborhoods those men live in. Women, children, mostly people that never met those horrible 10 rapists in their lives.

But, man you are ticked off and that's not nearly enough revenge.

So you gain complete control  of all the massive neighborhoods that those horrible rapists live in........while actually, only having a vague idea of where they MIGHT be.

And completely block off every single neighborhood to  starve ALL the people in ALL the neighborhoods of innocent people as well as take the water, fuel and medical care away from everybody that lives in any of the neighborhoods, including injured children and babies. And you don't allow any of them to leave. But you have no idea where those 10 evil men are. 

Day after day. Week after week. You continue to do this to thousands of people, still having no idea where those 10 evil men really are.

Then, almost  a month later, you still didn't get any of the 10 men but you know that they are out there and they want to get you so you insist that you MUST do this to get them before they come back and get you. No matter how many months of punishing innocent people with atrocities FROM YOU, adding up every day, even knowing the truth that at best, you might be able to get several of those men but not all of them. 

So Jean, in a civilized society would these actions above be in violation of any basic standards regarding how we treat innocent human beings or would vigilante justice that punishes 100+  times more innocent people for every 1 that did a crime be  your style of justice?

Would actions like this by me/you  to get those men responsible for the original incident cause extreme reactions from all the families of the innocent people killed? Men that lost their wives and children?

In trying to get those original 10 men, fact is that you just put a bounty on yourself from  10 X 10   men and families that you seriously harmed who never did anything to hurt you or your wife in their life.

And in your analogy of vigilantism,  all the friends and families and people living in other places that find out how you  slaughtered all these innocent people, mostly women and children are coming after YOU and your entire family and they outnumber you by 100 to 1.  And sadly, you will never get half of those men that committed the original crime.

There are 2 billion Muslims to 20,000 million Jews.

Jean, its that last part  in bold that  I mourn for Israel's future over. 

Thanks much, Joj!

I understand completely what you are saying. As usual, you have excellent knowledge and reasoning. 

There is no question that you will always know MUCH more about most realms related to this because of being Jewish. I totally respect your superior background and history. 

I also hope that my opinions related to this, though at times very strong and at times in disagreement with yours don't offend you. 

This is such an impossible situation with no easy solution. You asked me earlier about that and I would immediately get rid of the current leaders and work on a solution that involves Israel making some sacrifices that it doesn't want to make.

I don't have any skin in the game and am not Jewish but I use the scientific method to guide my objectively to see all points............not religion, not political affiliation, not where I live. And despite being a human with cognitive bias, I will do my best to override it.

With regards to my "Western" mindset, you would be amazed how  my mindset had a complete metamorphose on this topic during the last month.

 I had a, sort of indoctrinated mindset up until a month ago and for the previous 60 years of my life since I started learning about the Israelite's in 1st grade at St. Alphonsus Catholic School. I learned about God's chosen people and the son of God,  a Jewish man named Jesus. 

Then the Holocaust that I still find shocking, no matter how many thousands of articles or discussions I've read about it. 

Honestly, up until October 2023, in conflicts between Israel and anybody else, regardless of how it started, progressed and ended, I assumed in 100% of the cases that Israel was always right about everything. 

I have to admit also, that I was completely ignorant of most of the  history, other than events that made the Jews the hero's, good guys or victims in  every story. 

I struggled to not hate our outspoken antisemitic Ds in Congress when they spoke out in support for Palestine. I never 1 time understood it or spent any time researching it.

Israel was always right according to my indoctrination. In addition, I observed and appreciated the talent and hard work ethic and desire to learn in so many Jews. My kind of people, regardless of nationality.

Much of that mindset has not changed, so please don't get me wrong. However, after taking over as moderator here, I've become (too) obsessed at trying to learn new things by objectively studying science, history, politics, psychology (you name it) and generously sharing it to help other people and make the world a better place.

That said, my mindset today, as much as possible is to use the big picture and all the information from all sources with no extra weighting assigned to preconceived notions(as much as possible) to interpret evidence/facts into an independent, objective discernment which very often causes EUREKA! moments because I freed my mind from everything that causes everybody else to assume they know things..........which is based totally on what they think they know already. 

That is why I suddenly understand what the heck the Palestinians have been screaming bloody murder about for decades and I completely ignored with a closed, indoctrinated mind.

There really is nothing more liberating and powerful than suddenly realizing that you were either dead wrong or ignorant about something for much of your life and are now informed. 

With regards to that. I know that nothing that I say will change anything about how others feel on this topic because most views are extremely one sided and strong. 

And I really understand the side of Israel here. That was exactly my unwavering view for my entire life until a month ago, how could I NOT understand it completely?

However, there are 2 elements to my current view and this topic.

1. Whether Israel is blatantly violating the human rights of innocent people and to what degree is this  justified because its defending their country?  I want every Hamas member possible found and held accountible with immediate death via the IDF putting bullets thru their heads. I have 0 problems with killing bad guys dead, even if it takes SOME innocent people. 

2. However, the issue of number 2 is based on the GLOBAL REACTION to the methodology of the IDF holding Hamas accountible. I think that people who agree with the IDF's tactics 100% are completely blind to the massive blowback coming. Though I was clueless and not tuned into the past, my catching up with history tells me that this time is MUCH, MUCH different. Not just with how egregious the manner is but especially with the effectiveness of our communications technologies to pass on vivid, sensationalized and powerful interpreted  real time news.

Today, people all go to the sources that tell them what they want to hear/read. It's the core reason thats amplifying divisiveness. There are thousands of sites that are telling the pro Palestinian side that didn't exist 25 years ago. Same with the side for Israel. Many of those powerful sources are intentionally telling the most sensationalized, one sided interpretations possible. That's what the media, especially social media that didn't exist 25 years ago does in 2023.

So even if you KNOW its bs, like unfairly accusing Israel of committing genocide, what we think and what the truth is MAKES NO DIFFERENCE. 

If the other side believes it, that's their reality as much as the truth is the reality to people that know the truth. 

The other side will act, not based on our truth or even the authentic truth but based on what they think is the truth. 

And here's the thing. It's not like the circumstances are not already extreme violations against humanity that are way beyond what most people would consider a reasonable response and its getting worse every day.

So convincing people that the objective is genocide doesn't take much convincing at all. Look at the latest statistics on what Israel did every day to innocent people for an entire month now. To be honest, even though I don't think the objective is genocide, I can't be sure because of the enormity of the atrocities to 2 million innocent people are not close to being justified based on the reasons that Israel gives. 

Israel has nobody but themselves to blame for the other side claiming this is genocide.  And whats the difference between calling this

1.  War crimes against innocent people  or

2.  Atrocities against humanity?

3. Or Genocide?

It's the same horrible statistics, no matter what you call it.

Which of the 3 terms above do you prefer, joj? 

 Jean, picking self defense is an opinion that is out of touch with 95% of the world right now and as stated before,  whatever THEIR TRUTH is will determine THEIR ACTIONS. 

The reactions to this will be  based purely on everybody, everywhere's opinion (not mine or a Western frame of mine)

MIKE ~ "However, let me assist  you with a more accurate analogy to whats actually been happening in Gaza using your example."

MIKE, I DIDN'T ASK FOR MY HYPOTHETIC QUESTION TO BE COMPARED TO ANY OTHER SITUATION. I'M JUST LOOKING FOR STRAIGHT ANSWER, IS ALL.

AM I MISUNDERSTANDING YOU ~ OR, DO I READ YOU, CORRECTLY WHEN I CONCLUDE THAT YOU WOULD BLOW THEM ALL AWAY?

I'M JUST CURIOUS. LOL

Life, Liberty & Levin ~ TED CRUZ ON ISRAEL V HAMAS  30 MINUTES

Thanks very  much, Jean,

This is what I’ve been saying on peoples views, here.

They are very extreme on both sides,  especially  the sid that supports tunnel vision justification of imposing a long lived atrocity on 2 million innocent  people as self defense.

And each side is only looking for reasons for why they are right and justified and why the other side is wrong or unfairly depicting what they are doing.

And exactly because each side is NOT viewing the reality thru the others side, Israel and their supporters of this blatant humanitarian atrocity are 100% completely missing the enormity of the global outrage from billions of people.

They are stunned and puzzled about why antisemitism is suddenly going thru the roof When the reason is crystal clear but they wont look.

Its totally wrong to commit hate crimes against people that have nothing to do with the atrocities in Gaza.

But when one sides position is to strongly support the current, blatant, long lived war atrocities against 2 million innocent people, in what world would you expect the other side to not strongly react?

The answer is that in a world where the supporters Of the atrocity don’t want to acknolege the atrocity and don’t want to acknowledge the reason for and the enormity of the global outrage against it.

They would rather just go to their fellow atrocity denial sources and listen to them repeat the same thing, over and over.

Israel isn’t doing anything wrong, they’re just defending themselves.

Israel isn’t doing anything wrong, they’re just defending themselves. 

Im just trying to help you to connect the dots berween the extreme magnitude of the outrage which you greatly underestimate and what’s to come because of it.

You will be shocked by the magnitude of the blowback because you underestimated the extreme magnitude of the current outrage that inspired it.

It’s quite devastating to my personal love of Israel to know this is an inevitable outcome based on how humans respond to deeply personal violations of their very strong belief systems.

We aren’t just talking a few radical groups or extreme minorities.

The US, (and Israel)especially the Rs at places like Fox, are bombarding us with 1 sided propaganda so it’s not surprising that you have no idea what 90% of the world thinks.

Almost none of them are as fond of Israel as memike is.

The ones that align with Israel on this choose to pretend that the billions of people on the other side are just a very small number with an outlier position.

Denial of that massive faction and what they will do makes it easier to justify blind allegiance to the unshakeable faith and support for anything Israel does in the name of defending itself.

"I use the scientific method to guide my objectively to see all points............not religion".

That was as close as you got to addressing the thrust of my last post. 

So the Arab / Muslim world is predominantly of the religious mindset as I laid out with multiple examples but you are going to ignore that.  Ohhhh.... Kaay...

But I will address your post directly nonetheless.  Your 3 choices at the end of your post are a bit like asking me if I have stopped beating my wife ...  Yes? or No?

If innocent people dying is your metric for a war crime then I guess that would be the appropriate choice.  Now I have 2 questions for you.  1). Who started this war?  2)  Under your definition that innocent people dying is a war crime can you name one war in which innocent people were not dying on both sides?

I don't recall the USA dropping leaflets on the Japanese civilians to get out of harm's way in WWII as they bombed them into the Stone Age.  (Not to mention Dresden and other German cities)

Here are a couple of more hypotheticals to consider.  Suppose Mexico invades Texas, kills a few thousand people, and takes hundreds of hostages while shooting missiles at Dallas and other cities.  Before the US army blew Mexico away with superior military force killing countless innocent civilians in the process, Texans would have already raised an army and invaded on their own!!  And that is probably true in many of the other countries of the world currently sitting in judgment of Israel.

I've mentioned this hypothetical before but I did not see a response to it.  If your neighbor states aloud that they are going to kill you and your children and they succeed in killing one of your children while continuing to fire missiles at your remaining 3 children.  Are you going to wait for your next child to die?  But wait.  What if they are launching missiles from behind their children?   Of course, you will commit a war crime too.

And spare me that 95% of the world is against Israel.  I'm quite used to that.  The UN has sanctioned Israel more than all other countries combined.  Countries with monsters like Assad sitting in judgment of Israel.  Good grief.

There is only one solution to the conflict and it is a political solution which recognizes the legitimacy of both sides. But this is a war.  

And no, your posts do not offend me.  Even when we disagree, I know that 99% of the time you mean well.  The only time you offended me in all the years here at MF was when you mocked me derisively and sarcastically for pointing out that Trump's supporters were, according to authentic factual polling, less likely to have college degrees.

Jean,

Your link to Levin/Cruz doesn't work:

Hopefully this one is better:

https://www.foxnews.com/video/6340582582112

According to them, I'm an angry white liberal that hates Israel and loves Iran and Hamas for objecting to Israel's long lived war atrocities imposed in Gaza.

Anybody that disagrees with them is an extremist that wants to destroy Israel and has a raging hatred of Jews.

And that Israel is doing this for them AND us(in the United States).

Do you agree with them that I hate Israel and want it destroyed and love Hamas and Iran?

Of do you believe me, that I've  LOVED Israel since childhood and greatly admire the Jews, DESPITE recognizing their current extreme violation of human rights standards (war crimes) imposed on 2 million innocent people?

MIKE ~ "And exactly because each side is NOT viewing the reality thru the others side, IT'S IMPOSSIBE FOR EVEYONE TO SEE EVERYTHING THE SAME WAY. GOD DESIGNED US AS INDIVIDUALS.

Im just trying to help you to connect the dots berween the extreme magnitude of the outrage which you greatly underestimate and what’s to come because of it. I DON'T NEED HELP TO CONNECT THE DOTS, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

You will be shocked by the magnitude of the blowback because you underestimated the extreme magnitude of the current outrage that inspired it. I HIGHLY DOUBT I WILL BE SHOCKED, IN FACT. I CAN UNEQUIVOCALLY STATE THAT I AM NOT, NOR EVER WILL BE.

The US, (and Israel)especially the Rs at places like Fox, are bombarding us with 1 sided propaganda so it’s not surprising that you have no idea what 90% of the world thinks." MIKE, I HAVE ALL THE TRUTH / KNOWLEDGE I NEED, AS TO WHAT THE WORLD MAJORITY THINKS.  I UNDERSTAND BIBLICAL KNOWLEDGE.  I BELIEVE THE BIBLE & HAVE ALWAYS SEEN IT AS A HISTORY BOOK, WRITTEN IN ADVANCE. AS THE GOOD BOOK STATES: "IT IS WRITTEN"

_________________

IF YOUR SO INCLINED, YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THE BIBLE FOR WHAT IT IS & AT LEAST TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT.  YOU JUST MIGHT WALK AWAY ~ SHOCKED, BY THE TRUTH.

____________

I'M FINISHED DISCUSSING THIS WITH YOU.  THANK YOU & I'LL KEEP YOU IN MY PRAYERS.

Thanks, Jean,

I wish there was something that I could do to help you to not make it so personal.

You are always welcome and encouraged to chime in to conversations on this topic here which will likely continue for some time.

Or you can just read them.

Or you can ignore them.

Your friend, 

metmike

Jean,

With regards to this being a function of my ignorance of the Bible, I had religion class every day for 12 years at St. Alphonsus, in Dearborn, MI then taught religious education for 10 years to the high school students at St. John’s in Daylight IN.

I taught Church History most of that time and, actually, I have read the entire Bible And much of it numerous times.

But I won’t be offended at your attempt to use what you think is your superior understanding of the Bible to put me down.

People say things when they’re ticked off that they wouldn’t say when they’re not upset.

Your friend,

metmike

Joj,

Like I have stated several times, I see your position on this and understand why you feel this way….it’s the exact position that I had my entire life until a month ago.

I  also, now see the other sides position for the first time after brushing aside my indoctrination.

You are providing different hypothetical s to prove your position. Do you not believe me, that I keep telling you that I can still see it and never stopped seeing it?

Please don’t be upset with me for seeing YOUR side AND also seeing the other sides position, which is more compelling to me when applied to Gaza.

 People with your position are now treating me like a traitor for seeing the other side  and a know nothing about the Bible because I supposedly lack their wisdom that I had a month ago…..up until I voiced an opinion of people that disagree with you.

Intolerance and attacking those that disagree is not the best way to exchange ideas to understand the other side.

I’m just practicing the scientific method which compels  the scientist to be skeptical of what they think they know and instead let new information and facts take them to the truth.

With regards to me mocking you for stating Trumps supporters don’t have college degrees, I’ll take your word for it.

It must have happened numerous years ago and you clearly would not remember it so vividly unless it enraged you. 

I would like to sincerely apologize for doing that back then, at a time when that was possible, considering that  I was constantly defending Trump and Trump supporters against a bombardment from Mueller and MSMs  complete nonsense, which was proven to be nonsense when the Mueller report came out. 

Please accept my sincere apology.

If I can go back that far, I will pull it up for you.

Your friend,

metmike

UN chief says Gaza becoming a 'graveyard for children'

By Michelle Nichols

November 6, 202312:15 PM CST Updated 2 hours ago

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/un-chief-says-gaza-becoming-graveyard-children-2023-11-06/

Apology accepted.  

"People with your position are now treating me like a traitor for seeing the other side."

I hope you are not referring to me.  I don't see you as a traitor.   I see both sides as well.

While I think it is a mistake in the long run for Israel to engage in the war that Hamas started, I think they have a right to do so.

I also can point out numerous policies that Israel has engaged in that are wrong from both an ethical point of view and a practical point of view as they relate to their own interests.  For decades I have objected to Israel's policy of settler expansion in the West Bank.  I don't object to the military occupation for their security, but the settlers are squashing the possibility of a future negotiated political solution if a strong Palestinian leader were to emerge who could strike a deal.

Thanks much, joj!

That was a great response that makes me think that  if you and me were leaders of 2 countries negotiating over a key issue that we had a disagreement on, the process would be respectful and  productive.

That is an element that is sometimes lacking on social media  when you are debating a computer screen, using a keyboard.

Anyways, you're a class guy and our discussion involves what might be the worlds most complicated, no easy solution dynamic that neither of us are going to solve so the key for us is to maintain the friendship by not offending the other one.

You're the Jewish person, (who's opinion I greatly value) and you have much more than me to be offended about. Just know that I totally understand that your opinion's, although coming from a biased Jewish keyboard get tremendous weight from me.

I  can imagine what its like but I will never experience all the things that a Jewish person has experienced during their long lives. 

Your pride in being Jewish was never more clear with this thread:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/98420/

With that being the case, this must be totally devastating to you and many other Jews, like Larry/WxFollower in a way that very few others have ever experienced.

My lifelong love of Israel allows me to share partly in the feeling the devastation. 

Regardless of how I feel about the current events in Gaza and the current leaders making those bad decisions, my heart will always have a special place for today's ancestors of the Israelite's that came from the tribes of Judah, Benjamin and Levi. 

On that note, a huge reason that Fox news is so pro Israel is the connection to the bible which defines the vast majority of their viewers who are Christian's, like Jean that know their Old Testament and the history of the Israelite's and Jews. 

We all know that the Last Supper was Jesus celebrating Passover and Pentecost was another one.

What Holidays Did Jesus Celebrate? Here is a List!

https://firmisrael.org/learn/what-holidays-did-jesus-celebrate-here-is-a-list/

+++++++++++

You probably don't know exactly what Christian Churches teach because the Gospels and the New Testament go in a different direction after Jesus was born.

However we/they adhere to their Old Testament, as you can read from Jean's comments with unwavering faith just as strong as Jews believe in  the same history from that book.

This has resulted in great support and fondness of Israel by Christians based on religion history and commonality. 

Outrage grows after ‘chilling call for genocide’ by Florida Republican

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/nov/10/florida-republican-michelle-salzman-palestine

In the speech in support of the ceasefire resolution, the Democratic Florida state representative Angie Nixon said: “We are at 10,000 dead Palestinians. How many will be enough?”

“All of them,” Michelle Salzman called in reply.

Nixon acknowledged the interruption and said: “One of my colleagues just said, ‘All of them.’ Wow.”

The Florida state house later voted 104-2 to reject Nixon’s resolution.

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Michigan Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib censured by House over Israel remarks

Vote was 234-to-188, with 22 of Tlaib’s colleagues voting in favor of censuring

https://www.clickondetroit.com/news/local/2023/11/08/michigan-congresswoman-rashida-tlaib-censured-by-house-over-israel-remarks/

The House has voted to censure Michigan Democratic Congresswoman Rashida Tlalib for the remarks she’d made on Israel.

The decision occurred Tuesday night (Nov. 7) in Washington, D.C.

The vote was 234-to-188, with 22 of Tlaib’s colleagues voting in favor of censuring the Democratic congresswoman for criticizing Israel and supporting Palestinians during the Israel-Hamas war.

The House voted to advance the resolution put forward by republican congressman Rich McCormick.

When Tlaib spoke on the house floor, she was emotional, saying she wouldn’t be silenced.

“Let me be clear: my criticism has always been of the Israeli government and Netanyahu’s actions,” said Tlaib. “It is important to separate people and governments. Mr. Chair, no government is beyond criticism. The idea that criticizing the government of Israel is anti-Semitic sets a very dangerous precedent, and it’s been used to silence diverse voices speaking up for human rights across our nation.”

Most Democrats voted to table or block McCormick’s resolution.

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It will only get worse as long as this continues.

Israel's actions are making those calling this genocide look smarter every day )-:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100571/#100678

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https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/100334/

Genocide is the intentional destruction of a people^[a] in whole or in part. In 1948, the United NationsGenocide Convention defined genocide as any of five "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group". These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly.^[1][2]

The Political Instability Task Force estimated that 43 genocides occurred between 1956 and 2016, resulting in about 50 million deaths.^[3] The UNHCR estimated that a further 50 million had been displaced by such episodes of violence up to 2008.^[3] Genocide, especially large-scale genocide, is widely considered to signify the epitome of human evil.^[4] As a label, it is contentious because it is moralizing,^[5] and has been used as a type of moral category since the late 1990s.^[6]

Is What’s Happening in Gaza a Genocide? Experts Weigh In  

https://time.com/6334409/is-whats-happening-gaza-genocide-experts/

It’s been enough to prompt Craig Mokhiber, a director at the United Nations, to resign over the organization’s “failure” to act against what he called a "text-book case of genocide." And in a Nov. 2 press release, a separate coalition of U.N. experts similarly expressed concern, warning that Palestinians were “at grave risk of genocide.”

On Thursday, three Palestinian human rights organizations filed a lawsuit with the International Criminal Court (ICC) to request arrest warrants against Israeli leaders—including Prime Minister Benyamin Netanyahu—for genocide.

Raz Segal, the program director of genocide studies at Stockton University, concretely says it is a “textbook case of genocide.” Segal believes that Israeli forces are completing three genocidal acts, including, “killing, causing serious bodily harm, and measures calculated to bring about the destruction of the group.” He points to the mass levels of destruction and total siege of basic necessities—like water, food, fuel, and medical supplies—as evidence.

He says Israeli leaders expressed “explicit, clear, and direct statements of intent,” pointing to Israeli President Isaac Herzog’s statement during an Oct. 13 press conference.

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Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of
Genocide
Approved and proposed for signature and ratification or accession by
General Assembly resolution 260 A (III) of 9 December 1948
Entry into force: 12 January 1951, in accordance with article XIII

https://www.un.org/en/genocideprevention/documents/atrocity-crimes/Doc.1_Convention%20on%20the%20Prevention%20and%20Punishment%20of%20the%20Crime%20of%20Genocide.pdf

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Palestinian human rights organizations call on ICC to issue arrest warrants against Israeli leaders for genocide and incitement to genocide

https://www.mezan.org/public/en/post/46313/Palestinian-human-rights-organizations-call-on-ICC-to-issue-arrest-warrants-against-Israeli-leaders-for-genocide-and-incitement-to-genocide

People can argue over whether to call this "war crimes" or "crimes against humanity" or "ethnic cleansing"  or "genocide".

Pick the term above that you want to use. The verbiage makes no difference because the stone cold truth is still the same. 

Israel hates the people in Gaza enough to impose horrific collective punishment, using the event on Oct. 7 as an excuse to do this to 2+ million innocent people (mostly women and children).

It couldn't more clear how wrong this is by EVER SINGLE STANDARD, legal and ethical already defined here. No matter the verbiage.

That still doesn't justify antisemitism and hate crimes against people that are playing no role in these atrocities right now.

People have rights in our country and that includes being dead wrong in supporting a diabolical position and racism BY Israel. Even more absurd is punishing people of the same nationality that you think is doing something wrong half way around the world.

Jews in Israel doing this are not being controlled by independent Jews living in other places, who are all good people.

Upstanding Muslims in our country are playing no role in evil Hamas actions or Iran or other Middle Eastern situations.

People directing hate, with crimes against these innocent people in our country should be prosecuted aggressively with no tolerance. 

Jewish American Calls for a Ceasefire Highlight Divisions in the Community

https://time.com/6335528/jewish-american-ceasefire-progressive-jews/