The Biden administration could not have done a much worse job in handling the immigration crisis at the southern border. In fact, they created it and have lied about it repeatedly being anything but transparent.

The most absurd thing of all is that the VP is supposed to be managing it and still has not actually gone down there(because then she would be held accountable for things she saw, instead of, like now where they pretend its not happening).

The MSM should be nailing them to the wall for this pathetic handling of this major invasion of the US.........that they appear to NOT want to stop. 

Her reply when asked why she hadn't gone down there earlier this month was "I haven't been to Europe either"

WTHeck. If she was Queen of England, then that would make sense but she's VP of the UNITED STATES of America not Europe. 

It's great that she is going to help Central American countries but whether that pays dividends or not will be years down the road.  The crisis is right now in the country that she was elected to work for the people in.

There should be no higher priority in her life right now. It could just be like you said Gunter and sure seems that way............they want this to happen and just aren't being honest about it.

well said, metmike !!!!!

I was just reading that they have arrested large groups of Gypsies at our borders. They flew from France to Mexico and tried to get into the US

Biden/Harris have created a free-for-all game for any person, from any part of the world, to get into the US.   The MSM, if they talk about at all, they only mention Central America..  But they come from all continents... from the M.E., from Africa, from Asia.

The biggest threat to to the USA is not the Climate Crisis... it's not "white supremacy".... no, , it's  the Biden/Harris team.

VP Harris is looking for the root-cause of the out-of-control immigrationng immigration 

Funny!

Funny stuff <G>

 But seriously, the massive, historic floods from the two November of 2021 hurricanes is absolutely one of the root causes that is once again being ignored. That root cause, itself, has zero to do with Biden and everything to do with Mother Nature.

you seem to of posted this scenario many times. Fine. Don't you think its odd all these "hurricane victims" show up with new clothes, new tennis shoes, most of the ones I have seen are clean, well shaven, well fed and watered, and the oddest thing, most of them have this band on their wrist to indicate they are property of the drug cartels. How does any of that indicate "hurricane victim?"

Larry is right on the money about these hurricanes and their affects. Authentic facts are very important here and this one is being overlooked or underestimated by every source reporting on this situation in June 2021, so I thand Larry for making us, apparently the only source that is accurately assessing what REALLY happened.

The side that should be telling us about it is mind bogglingly silent.  Based on the facts, this would be perfect for Biden's agenda.  These would be the poster children of climate refugees. Why are they intentionally ignoring the authentic facts that, one would assume are perfect to support their political agenda and honestly/legitimately explain the illegal migration crisis?

They have to have a dang good/better reason to hide this rather than to showcase it. What is it?

We can speculate.

 Their position from the get go is that this is not a crisis. Biden insisted that this is normal and seasonal early on. They would not allow the media down there to document the facilities.  Harris refuses to even go down there and acts dumb when questioned about it because if she goes and sees it, the dumb act doesn't work anymore. 

To tell us about the massive surge in migration because of many millions of homeless  people in Central America from the unprecedented 1, 2 punch from excessive rains of 2 hurricanes late last year is to fully acknowledge the legit fact of the reality............there is a huge humanitarian crisis at the Southern Border right now.

They refused to tell the truth about that, so, ironically lying about it, has just sabotaged them and their agenda and backfired completely. If they come out with the truth..........then IT IS A CRISIS..........which would mean they were lying from the get go.

They have to cover up their lies.

If it is a humanitarian crisis..................which it is, then why the heck didn't our VP in charge go down there months ago? Why aren't we applying laws and obtaining aid packages to come to the rescue for a humanitarian crisis, instead of going down there to talk about changing the future and telling people not to come?

And we were promised that they would be totally transparent on this issue.

For the Biden administration, from the get go on this issue, it's been nothing but totally manufactured realities being sold with false narratives to convinvce the American people of something that is totally fake news and lies.....and they are totally busted by ALL the authentic facts..............more facts to come below to prove this irrefutably.

Previous threads:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70711/#70737

Here's some discussions that we had about Eta and Iota and the affects on Central America..........also Mitch, which did the same thing 2 decades ago. This is the smoking gun proof of the millions of homeless that are part of those coming north. 

                Biden has done poorly at border but Eta and Iota did devastate C America in Nov            

        Started by WxFollower - May 30, 2021, 4:34 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70239/

  Tropics 10/29+            

                            17 responses |                

                Started by WxFollower - Oct. 29, 2020, 8:25 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/60533/

        Back-to-Back Hurricanes in Central America Push Migrants North, Adding to Humanitarian Crisis    

                                                   Emily  Denny                    

Mar. 25, 2021 02:08PM EST        Climate

https://www.ecowatch.com/central-america-hurricanes-climate-refugees-2651211219.html

Why Central American Migrants Are Arriving at the U.S. Border

          By                      Paul J. Angelo, CFR Expert                  

            March 22, 2021 9:00 am 

https://www.cfr.org/in-brief/why-central-american-migrants-are-arriving-us-border

"Likewise, after a decade of shifting weather patterns and resultant food insecurity, back-to-back Category 5 hurricanes struck Central America this past fall: the storms eviscerated subsistence farms, killed hundreds of thousands of livestock, and devastated large-scale agricultural production. Many people in the region have family ties to the United States and, in the face of such adversity, migrate with the hopes of reuniting with loved ones and improving their lives."

metmike: These would be the perfect examples of what Biden/Harris have referred to as "climate refugees". And we have hundreds of thousands of them(potentially millions) surging in but Biden/Harris refuse to acknowledge them for what they are because it would contradict his false narrative that there is no crisis at the southern border.

This is pretty messed up.

Mike,

 Good post. Yep, they're blowing a perfect opportunity to call them "climate refugees" although you and I know that the proper classification would be "weather refugees" as proving these 2 back to back devastating hurricanes were due to climate change as opposed to a very rare weather setup that MAY occur every few hundred years or so regardless of global temps is practically impossible.

But, as I asked before,  if these are "climate refugees" fleeing devistated hurricaines,     why is the US the only possible destiny?

Tim,

I realize that was rhetorical because you think Mexico should take them and I am all for that too.

However, they clearly want the US and after Trump was legally defeated in the election by all authentic/objective standards, Mexico apparently has no motive to take them.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70633/#70710

I'm certain that going south is an almost 0% option.

It's certainly not rhetorical.   Are they fleeing a hurricaine or are they wanting to take advantage of an admin that is apparently lax on border security, and even possibly quite welcoming?

If they were only fleeing a hurricaine, anywhere not impacted by the hurricaine would have been an accepatble destinatrion.   Very possibly, locations within their own country.

You are right, timnew. A shorter distance to the South there is Colombia or Ecuador... no hurricane problems at all down there.

Or, as you said, even within their own country...on the Pacific Coast.

However, there is really only ONE country that offers the following....

Seven years of monthly Social Security checks, free food stamps, free health care, free education for their kids, etc. And if you know how to work the system, you can extend it past 7 years

That's why they are coming not just from the hurricane areas, but also from South America, Africa, the M.E., Asia

I meant rhetorical in the sense that you know at least part of  the answer to the question already............which I think is what you just communicated.

Sorry for the confusion.

It should be rhetorical,  but I repeatedly hear that the hurricaine is the reason for our current border crisis,  which forces the question. 

That's like me saying I am breaking into a house in California because my house in Ga burned down.   Preposterous.

Nobody is saying its the entire reason but the facts about how many millions were displaced from their homes from the 2 hurricanes............a record and Larry and metmike can verify the physical reality of it, not just fake or exaggerated news.........tells us that it must be a huge factor.

Why wouldn't it be?

The strangest thing by far is the need by this administration to not be telling us about it. Clearly, it must contradict something in their narrative that they want people to think. 

Dang, they can't even be honest about things that actually support their cause short term because their scheme involves convincing us of somethings more important than that truth. 

Gunter,

The GDP and economy/income for people in Columbia and Ecudor is less than Mexico(and a small fraction of the US) and they would have to cross over the Panama canal, which might have tight restrictions.

We had a border crisis under Obama.  How many hurricaines did we have then?   It started out with massive caravans, but it was starting to get under control during Trump.   Those massive parades of well fed people traveling at incredible walking speeds, seemingly many 100's or thousands of miles per day.  Hurricaines?

I am nearly certain that with, or without hurricaines,  a US president essentially welcoming "refugees" will cause a border crisis.

"We had a border crisis under Obama.  How many hurricanes did we have then?"

Zero hurricanes like this Tim.

You probably missed it with all the weather stuff above but I'll give you the specific link on the last time.............1998, and hurricane Mitch.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70239/#70246

That means it went back before Bush, with Clinton being the president in 1998. As Larry and I have been saying, this is a huge deal that only happened one time before to this extreme in recent history going back, it appears for  at least several decades.

But this area has always had tropical systems hit them on a semi regular basis.  The 1960's/70's were easily the most active for MAJOR hurricanes....during global cooling when an amazing 5 major hurricanes hit just this one country, Honduras. Then, zero major hurricanes for 20 years until Mitch hit in 1998.

Larry will especially like this part of the post below. Iota was very unique because it was only a tropical storm for Honduras but dumped as much massive rain as most major hurricanes..............so it wasn't WIND that displaced millions in these 2 countries it was the extreme rains.

Honduras' history with tropical systems

http://www.hurricanecity.com/city/honduras.htm

Average years between direct major hurricane hits.(major hurricane at adv or hurdat upon passage)
(3)once every 49.67 years

This areas hurricane past
1892 Oct 11th, 85mph from the ESE
1893 July 5th,85mph from the S.E
1918 a cat 2 hurricanes with 105mph winds skirts the north coast on Aug 25th.
1935 Oct 25th 85mph from the N.E
1941 Sept 28th, 110mph from the ESE
1961 July 23rd, Hurricane Anna 80mph(hurdat) from the ESE skirts the north coast.
1969 Hurricane Francelia hits southern Belize & NW Honduras 110mph winds on Sept 2nd from the ENE.Newspaper article
1971 Edith,Sept 9th, 140mph (hurdat2) from the ESE.NHC Wallet 
1974 hurricane Fifi ,110mph kills 3,000 ,the town of Choloma destroyed sept 18th,Fifi was cloud seeded & hondurans blamed the U.S for altering the hurricanes movement 12,000 killed. NHC Wallet
1978 Sept 18th,Greta hits with 130mph winds killing many from the ESE as it skirts the north coast. NHC Wallet
1998 Oct 27th,hurricane Mitch hits from the north with 140mph winds while weakening moving very slowly in late october very heavy rains killing 14,600 in Honduras according to the International Disaster Database and up to 23,000 in all of central america after earlier being a cat 5 with 180mph winds while over the open waters. Mitch caused hurricane force winds over coastal Honduras for approx 36 hrs. Windjammer ship "Fantome" was never found with 31 aboard missing. 92% of bridges & 52% of roads were destroyed.

Tim,

 To reiterate what Mike and I have said, the hurricanes are a major factor in causing the big increase in 2021 encounters at the US/MX border due to a worsening humanitarian crisis in especially Honduras and Guatemala caused by the hurricane related massive flooding. The worsening humanitarian crisis down in those 2 countries has zero to do with Biden. But combine that worsening humanitarian crisis with more lenient Biden policies and you get the big jump in folks desperately trying to help themselves and their families by trying to get into the US illegally at the MX border.

 In summary as Mike and I have been explaining, it is combo of these two factors that have caused the big increase in 2021 that will likely lead to fiscal year 2021 having the highest since 2000 and the 6th highest behind only 1986 (which had the highest), 1996, and 1998-2000.

 Aside: fiscal 1999 and probably also fiscal 2000 were enhanced by 1998’s (fiscal 1999’s) devastating hurricane Mitch.

We'll have to agree to disagree.  There is an ongoing crisis that seems to correlate far more strongly with current political leaning than weather.   

But the question of why the US is the only acceptable desitnation for this :"Humanitarian Crisis" has not at all been addressed, IMO.

Tim,

 My guess would be that the US is a great place to live vs most other countries in the Americas. Combine that with the more lenient Biden policies and the two horrible flooding disasters of November of 2020 and voila.

metmike, 

thanks, I didn't know that.

Most of us are not quite aware of what havoc was caused by the storms.

Yet, what's coming across our borders is a whole lot more than people being uprooted by the storms. It's a tsunami of people, and they come from all parts of the world, because uncle joe has welcomed them.

there is one issue that's not in the news yet... most of us are aware that the Mexican government is fighting a losing battle against drug cartels. There is a regualr war going on in Mexico.  Just recently the cartels told the police "you kill one of us, we kill 2 of your family"

Since Biden is in the WH, the drug cartels have become even bolder than before. they have branches as far North as Seattle. if this goes on, the US may some day look like Mexico, with the Cartels being in control

Tim,

We keep agreeing with you about Biden's policies being significant but you won't let us be in agreement with you.

As far as why only the US is the preferred country for these people?

Let's say that Tim, Gunter, WxFollower and metmike were given this list of countries to pick to live in:

1. Guatemala

2. Honduras

3. Columbia

4. Ecuador

5. Mexico

6. United States

OK, pretend you didn't already live in the US and lived in the first 2 countries and those were the choices(and had decided to NOT live in your country)  so really its choices 3-6.

OK, so let's add to that which of those countries has the most jobs/opportunities based, not on preference of the people coming in but the reality of economic facts?

I get that you think that these refugees or however you want to classify them should be distributed to other countries, instead of all going to the US but why not send some to Africa too? That's an extreme example but the closest, really rich country to them is the US.

This is also the reason that many of the European RICH countries have Muslims gushing in. They are on the same continent. If the Middle East was where Central America is..........it's the US that would have Muslims gushing in at the Southern Border.

If Central America was where the Middle East is, the European rich countries would have Latino's gushing in from the south. 

Natural disasters just make a pre existing condition, temporarily much worse.

Biden allowing more people in, is like super imposing more liberal restrictions that will cause more people to come in regardless of the natural disasters or no natural disasters.

Gunter said:

"metmike, 

thanks, I didn't know that.

Most of us are not quite aware of what havoc was caused by the storms."

--------------------------------

Gunter,

 OK. But to be fair, Mike and I have been posting about the havoc caused by these storms for two and a half weeks since the May 30th thread about the havoc caused by the storms was started. We're trying to educate, but that relies on our stuff to be read.

Tim said: "We had a border crisis under Obama."

-------------------------

 From where did you get this? That's not true at all and I'm no Obama fan whatsoever. But I am a fan of spreading the truth and facts. More later when I get time. I have overall US/MX border encounter stats since 1925. They got much worse vs prior years under Truman, early Eisenhower, Carter, Reagan, and Clinton, but actually drastically improved under Obama.

ouch, my sloppy writing again!

when I thanked metmike and said "I didn't know that", I was referring to his comments about Panama, Colombia and Ecuador

The sentence after that, referring to the storms... yes, I have seen yours and metmike's posts, but I admit, I only scanned over them and didn't really feel their full impacct. I will try to do better.

"They got much worse vs prior years under Truman, early Eisenhower, Carter, Reagan, and Clinton, but actually drastically improved under Obama."

It would be interesting to know how many of those people were from hurricane or natural disaster refugees. It would be  a challenging task to look at tropical storm/hurricane stats and compare them with immigration stats..........but you would also need to know what specific countries the immigrants were coming from each year. 

An immigration surge in a year that Honduras got clobbered by a hurricane might mislead you.......if the biggest increase was from Guatemala that year! 

Regardless, we can say with extraordinarily high confidence, without needing detailed accurate historical records, that millions of people became homeless late last year in Central America because of the massive flooding from the 2 hurricanes that were still dumping tons of rains after they hit land and rapidly became TS's. So it was rains not wind that caused much of the problem. Making connecting the past extreme weather and immigration even trickier for somebody starting from scratch.

Records certainly exist that document how many people came in as natural disaster refugees. 

Larry and I observed the weather that caused it in real time(in fact saw it coming well before hand, with Larry starting the conversation by speculating that it would affect coffee prices........and that's exactly what happened).

There had been some drought damage to the coffee crop from a month or so earlier in the coffee growing region of Brazil, so the conversations about coffee were very active............with absolutely zero thoughts about the affects on immigration in 2021.

Maybe there should be an immigration # trading market (-:

Speaking of the active coffee threads/posts from late last year, here they are. They are some of the best weather and tradings posts in MarketForum's 2+ decades history! Starting from the most recent below. There is a ton of discussion on the extreme rains in Central America that led to millions of homeless people in the path of Eta and Iota. The last discussion(the first below) has info about Vietnam's weather/coffee too.

Some great stuff!

          https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/62040/       

Previous coffee thread with award winning posts from WeatherFollower!

                Coffee 11/10/20-11/27/20            

                            41 responses |              

                Started by WxFollower - Nov. 10, 2020, 2:07 a.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/61046/

 Please continue with coffee discussions here that were going on at this old thread;

                Coffee 10/29/20-11/9/20                        

                55 responses |         

                Started by WxFollower - Oct. 29, 2020, 8:32 p.m.            

 https://marketforum.com/forum/topic/60535/

        Previous discussion on coffee:

                Coffee            

                            52 responses |               

                Started by rockitck - July 22, 2020, 8:48 p.m. 

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/56557/

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

At the same time, we were posting on a separate thread on just the tropics.......about the same systems.

  Tropics 10/29+            

                            17 responses |                

                Started by WxFollower - Oct. 29, 2020, 8:25 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/60533/

and the previous discussion on the tropics that focused on Cotton

                Tropics September 20, 2020 onward            

                            48 responses |             

                Started by metmike - Sept. 20, 2020, 12:10 p.m.            

                                        https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/59336/

Sorry for hijacking this thread  temporarily with the trading stuff on this page but I wanted it all on one page to use for a trading thread here:

                Coffee/weather discussions from late 2020            

                           Started by metmike - June 17, 2021, 7:40 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/71201/

OK, we can go back to the main topic (-:

According to Obama and NPR, there was a crisis at the border. 

President Obama Also Faced A 'Crisis' At The Southern Border : NPR

"My house in Ga burned down.   I've always wanted to live on the beach.  The houses and beaches on the southeast coast are just so so, IMO. So I have chosen to go to California and break into a house and live on the beach there".

Anyhting wrong with this statement?

(-:

Tim your example is timely and sad. Our current situation at the boarder and your example are why with this administration our laws mean nothing if you are a criminal plus a new dem voter that has no legal right to this country or our elections. I see MM thought your comment was cute with a smile. Now we all MM and he obviously does not think it is a cute situation either but even a small post like that hides what a complete mess the libs have made in a few weeks time. Nothing funny about this mess. And I am sure you did not mean it that way. Just last nite there was a report of young girls 8 months pregnant being forced into sex slavery....so cute those drug cartels are and those cute little red wrist bands they all where.

mcfarm,

The smiley face (-: was just me crying uncle.

Nobody in this thread is taking the position that Biden is not doing a bad job at the border.

Just because there is another reason making the border crisis so horrible and you guys MUST have Biden to be at fault for ALL of it doesn't mean I/we are disagreeing with you guys.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#70940

"Tim,

We keep agreeing with you about Biden's policies being significant but you won't let us be in agreement with you."

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71180

I understand you have acknowledged Biden's role in all this.

My contention is, and has been that the Hurricaines are not forcing people to crash our borders any more than my house burning down forces me to break into a beach house in Ca.  

MM glad you agreeing however just to add some common sense to this mess. The USA leads the world in helping clean up after disasters. We can manage that have proven it hundreds of times, maybe thousands. But we CANNOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTNCES handle what this administration has brought to our boarders.

It’s called humanitarian aid Tim. 

And the US is not somebody’s privately owned house with laws that apply based on private ownership.

There are totally different governing laws when it comes to people invading the southern border of our COUNTRY....not even in the same league as somebody breaking into a privately owned house.

Thanks mcfarm,

Glad you agree that the US is the best when helping the less fortunate in the world. I can tell that you are proud of that.

Biden is really botching the border crisis badly and the worst part is the continual dishonesty.

Quite frankly, It would have been MUCH better for them to say......ok, look folks....Central America got clobbered by  2 hurricanes, so we are going to use the same laws that applied to hurricane Mitch 2 decades ago and are allowing XXX numbers of ADDITIONAL people in from those people. Even if it was a big number it would be the truth and an easier sell to people like me that believe in humanitarian aid......a lot of it because we have waaay more than we will ever need and most people in the world don’t have enough.

Perfect chance for him to abuse the term “climate refugee”

Doing it the way they are handling this at our border makes little sense......except that helping the individual countrys  does make sense.

It's also possible they didn't want to limit the immigration increase to just those 2 countries that had the massive number of homeless from the 2 hurricanes.

They have some sort of a reason to be dishonest about this additional element though because its perfectly suited for them to justify a big part of the increase in migration and they obviously know it.

With regards to the strategy to fix the countries in Central America. I applaud all efforts and humanitarian aid attempts, though am very concerned that much of the money goes to graft and non productive realms. 

But we often have almost no control of those places and what happens inside of them.. even with our best efforts.

We should have near absolute control of our own country with regards to who we let in.  That’s the entire problem. And we deserve MUCH MORE honestly from those we pay to work for us and serve our country who are always more concerned about creating/manufacturing narratives to sell themselves to us for personal benefits to them or their party.

Property is proprerty,  Borders are borders.   When you leave your doors unlocked to criminals,  I'll still disagree.  But I bet you never would. 

This is such an illogical debate...   I don't know how to proceed. 

.Forgetting the ethical issues of confiscating peoples time and effort to care for people who break into our country, while encouraging them to do so,  please refer me to the specific clause in the constitution that authorizes the federal government to render "Humanitarian Aid".

its like everything else B I G government gets involved in Tim. Starts out small with some gesture some pol somewhere thought would be a good idea. Now he may of been serious but likely just looking for a headline. So a few million were shipped here or there. Mind you there were no safety locks on these millions, just the flat out ugly inefficent sloppy way big gov does things, and nobody knows exactly where these millions did eventually get to, Some helped sure but the biggest part of the pile was in the wrong hands and wasted. This road we went down with "foreign aid" was a dead end from the start but just like our boarder mess its a road we are so far down how in the hell arie we going to turn around now?

Tim,

We don’t need/use laws to require us to provide humanitarian aid,

They are based on our ethical ideological codes and caring for humanity.

1, Paying taxes is mandatory and required. Doesn’t matter how you think.

2, Helping less fortunate is not required, even if you have 100 times more than them and they were born with no opportunities and you had every opportunity and used them. Just depends on the persons.

Do we want our very rich government with every opportunity to become rich to help those less fortunate with our tax dollars?

I guess it depends on your personal belief system and how you feel about humanity.

I think we should do even more not less. Laws will never define our humanity.

There is no law that requires us to smile and be friendly to people we meet or listen to what they have to say, whether we know them or even like them.

It’s our personal choice. 

We can be nice to others....go a step further and even help them.......or we can ignore their problems and ignore their opinions because there are no laws imposing respect for humanity.

Federal government is not autorized to do charity,  quite simple.  Thats up to states or individuals.    But,  90% of the federal goverment current functions are meta-constitutional,  so what's one more.  But the government does an absolute terrible job of charity.  Our welfare system creates poverty and our foreign aid enriches politicans in the country we help and our politicians here.   There's reasons they should not be in that business, and the main one is they suck at it.

But I am really having trouble getting me head around the idea of illegal entry into a country as "humanitarian aid".

If I need a car and steal yours,  is that your humanitarian effort?   What if I need money?  Can I rob a bank?

Thanks Tim,

Please stick to the answer to YOUR question instead of applying the answer to a completely different question(if you're able) or impose a fake position of metmike's to attack it:

Tim: " please refer me to the specific clause in the constitution that authorizes the federal government to render "Humanitarian Aid".

The answer to THAT question:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71258

You keep wanting to argue with me about something that I have emphatically agreed with you on countless times(creating an opposing view that doesn't exist to attack it at times)..............illegal immigration and Biden handling of the southern border.

Just to repeat my views again to see if you are in agreement because that isn't the message that I'm getting from your posts and maybe I'm wrong.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#70940

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71239

"We should have near absolute control of our own country with regards to who we let in.  That’s the entire problem. And we deserve MUCH MORE honestly from those we pay to work for us and serve our country who are always more concerned about creating/manufacturing narratives to sell themselves to us for personal benefits to them or their party."

Strawman Arguments: What They Are and How to Counter Them

https://effectiviology.com/straw-man-arguments-recognize-counter-use/

"A strawman is a fallacious argument that distorts an opposing stance in order to make it easier to attack. Essentially, the person using the strawman pretends to attack their opponent’s stance, while in reality they are actually attacking a distorted version of that stance, which their opponent doesn’t necessarily support.

For example, if someone says “I think that we should give better study guides to students”, a person using a strawman might reply by saying “I think that your idea is bad, because we shouldn’t just give out easy A’s to everyone”.

Because strawman arguments are frequently used in discussions on various topics, it’s important to understand them. As such, in the following article you will learn more about strawman arguments, see examples of how they are used, and understand what you can do in order to counter them successfully."

Thanks mcfarm. Pretty funny and sometimes true..........but sort of ironic in this case.

So everybody knows there is a crisis at the southern border.

Is your position not that we need the government to do MORE not less in stopping illegal immigration?

Let me know if you think that this thread is getting too long and I should have started a new thread with the extremely relevant story below:

56 House Republicans demand Kamala Harris be removed from border crisis role

https://nypost.com/2021/06/19/house-republicans-demand-vp-harris-be-removed-from-border-role/?utm_medium=browser_notifications&utm_source=pushly&utm_campaign=1104196

metmike: Most democrats(note none from her party want her removed) will claim this is political. However, the question is not about whether she is incompetent but about the level of that proven incompetence.

It's tough to tell because all  of this could be entirely intentional This would  mean that  we have to dial down the incompetence a couple notches and dial up the dishonestly by that amount.............but for sure both are factors.

We have eyes and brains.

The scariest thing of all is that this is our next president of the United States. Wow, she can't even manage one part of one issue with effectiveness.

This would be like taking a maintenance man in a school building, just after the kids go on Summer vacation.

Let's say that he caused a big damaging flood because they didn't know how to turn off the main water valve in the building during Summer vacation because of a broken water pipe that they did not fix..........and let the water keep flooding the entire building for 2 months........then, when everybody is ready to come back to school, they all see their building is destroyed from water damage and  half the teachers respond with "Let's promote this person to superintendent of the school corporation" (-:

There's a silver lining in this cloud for republicans though.

This is the most important job that Harris has had in her life and the first key responsibility for her as vice president.

I believe that republicans are right now, taking a pre emptive strike at her, looking ahead for when she runs for president in 2024. Regardless of how much politics is playing in this........they have the goods to justify this demand and they are paving the way to carving out a narrative that will be used against her for the next 3 years.

Smart thinking and based on the truth in this case. 

If they can just get rid of Trump somehow, they would have a good chance.

If Trump ran, for instance people would vote for Harris over him no matter what. There are no conceivable circumstances under which Trump would not lose in a landslide and totally embarrass republicans at the same time. 

Anyway, sorry to bring Trump up but its about 2024 and who her opponent might be. It seems unlikely that they would run Biden again. The only person that he could beat is Trump or somebody that tries to align with Trump to get his endorsement. 

Here is Biden bringing the country together again as he promised. He will fire the VP and hire Trump to re-fix the boarder which he has proven he can do. Hell lets hire him to fix the economy, the energy mess, the foreign policy mess etc. He was pretty damn good at all the present team suck at.

As far as what should "big gov" do at the boarder more or less MM. How about "it depends". Either do more of what Trump did and shut up or less than Biden and get the hell out of the way and just provide back up to the states and let them handle it. You cannot be in control and then hand cuff the good guys you hire like Biden is doing and pretend you are solving anything, you are not.

MM. This is amazing.  Debates with you are reaching surreal levels.

You say...  

Please stick to the answer to YOUR question instead of applying the answer to a completely different question(if you're able) or impose a fake position of metmike's to attack it:

Tim: " please refer me to the specific clause in the constitution that authorizes the federal government to render "Humanitarian Aid".

The answer to THAT question:

to my statemnt:

Federal government is not autorized to do charity,  quite simple.  Thats up to states or individuals.    But,  90% of the federal goverment current functions are meta-constitutional,  so what's one more.  But the government does an absolute terrible job of charity.  Our welfare system creates poverty and our foreign aid enriches politicans in the country we help and our politicians here.   There's reasons they should not be in that business, and the main one is they suck at it.

And then you refer to your original hopelessly flawed argment  as some sort of rebuttal?  Good Gawsh.

We don’t need/use laws to require us to provide humanitarian aid,

Did you read my post?   You certainly can't repeat your original nonsense as a rebuttal if you did.  The constitution in general and the 10th amendment specifically refute such nonesense,

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.

And somehow,  you say you are agreeing with me?   I've read your posts.  You think we agree? And you use the "StrawMan"?  <Chuckle>

Address this.

But I am really having trouble getting me head around the idea of illegal entry into a country as "humanitarian aid".

If I need a car and steal yours,  is that your humanitarian effort?   What if I need money?  Can I rob a bank?

That was your stated position above. Do you now disagree with your stated position,  or are you trying to change the subject?

All I can do is to refer you back to what's already been stated clearly, if you want to read it again, that's up to you.

And ask that you  pretty please stop making strawman statements like this(at least TRY to stop doing that if you can): 

Tim: "But I am really having trouble getting me head around the idea of illegal entry into a country as "humanitarian aid".

When I posted to you  numerous times that this is absolutely NOT my position.

I will repeat my position for you for the 4th time..............probably to no avail:

Mike: "Just to repeat my views again to see if you are in agreement because that isn't the message that I'm getting from your posts and maybe I'm wrong.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#70940

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71239

"We should have near absolute control of our own country with regards to who we let in.  That’s the entire problem. And we deserve MUCH MORE honestly from those we pay to work for us and serve our country who are always more concerned about creating/manufacturing narratives to sell themselves to us for personal benefits to them or their party."

All I did was basically repeat the same things already stated a bunch of times, so we have entered deeply into the land of a very unproductive realm on this part of the thread between the 2 of us. I suggest that we go on to something else.

Thanks

MM, you seem to be try to redefine the discussion,  so lets do a recap.

I said:

I understand you have acknowledged Biden's role in all this.

My contention is, and has been that the Hurricaines are not forcing people to crash our borders any more than my house burning down forces me to break into a beach house in Ca.  

to which you replied.

It’s called humanitarian aid Tim.

And the US is not somebody’s privately owned house with laws that apply based on private ownership.

I replied:

please refer me to the specific clause in the constitution that authorizes the federal government to render "Humanitarian Aid".

You then said:

We don’t need/use laws to require us to provide humanitarian aid,

They are based on our ethical ideological codes and caring for humanity.

I then said:

Federal government is not autorized to do charity,  quite simple.  Thats up to states or individuals.    But,  90% of the federal goverment current functions are meta-constitutional,  so what's one more.  But the government does an absolute terrible job of charity.  Our welfare system creates poverty and our foreign aid enriches politicans in the country we help and our politicians here.   There's reasons they should not be in that business, and the main one is they suck at it.

But I am really having trouble getting me head around the idea of illegal entry into a country as "humanitarian aid".

If I need a car and steal yours,  is that your humanitarian effort?   What if I need money?  Can I rob a bank?

At this point,  you appear to be accusing me of changing the subject and refer back to an earlier comment which was really part of the same question.  

Then you finish up with this.

We should have near absolute control of our own country with regards to who we let in.  That’s the entire problem. And we deserve MUCH MORE honestly from those we pay to work for us and serve our country who are always more concerned about creating/manufacturing narratives to sell themselves to us for personal benefits to them or their party."

   And you seem to claim this has been your position for the entire time when thats not at all the impression I got from your claim that we are obligated to provide humanitarian aid, and I don't think I'll ever agree that people crashing our border has anything to do with humanitarian aid.

(-:

Just to remind mcfarm and others............that means "crying uncle" from the moderator..........and I should have gone with my instincts with that 2 days and 18 posts ago..........but we live and learn (-:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/70937/#71221

I think I cried uncle many times with Vandy. He was so frustrating I was actually crying. Tim is easy for me, no problem ever, usually very short, quick wit, to the point and knowledgeable as all get out.

Tim is awesome!

He contributes tons of great stuff too.