More sickening stuff:
"Wisconsin teachers resign after investigation into slavery lesson"
"The teachers gave sixth grade students an assignment that asked them how they would 'punish' a slave, officials said."
Larry,
Super duper topic, thanks!
I have an opinion on this but would like to see others comment first.
No comments?
Mike,
What is your opinion?
Thanks much Larry!
I was hoping to get other opinions.
Let me first emphasize how repugnant that I consider slavery. I've been against all authentic civil rights violations since I was a young democrat going to the University of Michigan many decades ago.
Here is my main problem with how mainstream thinking has it wrong about judging people that owned slaves or condoned slavery 200 years ago.
You must first ask the question?
Why did they condone slavery? Were they born with ethics that caused them to treat black people as inferiors or did they learn it?
Since slavery had been acceptable for thousands of years and was practiced in almost every country at one time and they learned it from their parents, school, society.....the world they lived it, what would be the source for them to learn that slavery was bad?
It had to come from something inside themselves mainly but that would have to represent a total rejection of what were the acceptable norms back then that were ingrained in them since being a child.
We have greatly evolved since then and everybody alive today, has been given thousands of opportunities to see why slavery was wrong...........TO US.
But then(this is where I have the problem) we take our enlighted state of understanding and impose the same ethics on primitive people 300 year ago and totally judge them for doing what was acceptable and they were taught then but is an atrocity today.
Here is a good analogy.
Science has greatly advanced during the last 2,000 years. But it happened gradually as we learned new things, those were taught to the new generations(passed on) and each generation became more enlightened scientifically (similar to how ethics and treatment of different races was).
What if we gave Plato and Aristotle(who were both racists and male chauvinists BTW because everyone was back then), the most brilliant scientific minds.... an 8th grade science test. Ask them how far the sun is from the earth........heck, they thought the sun revolved around the earth........and questions like that.
Or take the smartest doctors from 300 years ago and ask them questions about antibiotics and vaccines ...........that were not even invented for them to know about and thought that blood letting was a good treatment to get the pathogens out of the body.
They would all get F's on a basic science test designed for elementary school children today. Dang, so the most brilliant scientific minds in history...............were actually NUMBSKULLS????
No they weren't. They were in the process of gradually discovering and learning the principles of science(and ethics) that got passed on to each generation. Each generation got smarter and smarter. How dare we, the enlightened ones in 2021, go back and judge those before us for not knowing what we know................when they never had the same opportunities to learn it like we did.........NONE.
Did they have the internet and thousands of resources that enlightened them about everything there is to know in the world(including how to judge people that don't have the same belief system as us............even if they lived 200 years ago).
Let's honor them for all the great things that they did in their times to advance society towards where we are today in their fields of expertise BASED ON THAT AGE. If it was science and history............then recognize them in those fields. If it was in ethics and race equality..........honor them for those things.
But please stop judging people that had slaves when society accepted slave owning.......in fact the economic world in the south ENCOURAGED IT.
I am actually ok with this teachers exercise as long at its been done in proper context. In fact, it could be a valuable lesson in them understanding how far we have come.
If you are going to try to get young people to think about how abhorrent it would be for them to treat a slave that they owned today, also teach them why it was totally acceptable back then.
Related to this. Do we have kids go back to 600 years ago and pretend they are living in the world of all those idiot scientists that thought the world was flat and the sun revolved around it and blood letting was the cure for illnesses? And may have owned slaves?
It's ok for them to be dumb about science.
It was not ok for them to be dumb about ethics. Why is that?
BTW, women in this country did not even have the right to vote until just over 100 years ago...............so society was incredibly primitive on equal rights of the genders.
I won't even mention gay rights stats.
I never see any cries for these same men that had slaves, to be defrocked because they didn't give their wives and women at the time anything close to equality.
But we evolved..........we really evolved.
Sadly, we are going backwards today in teaching certain principles in ethics. Love and understanding is being replaced by hate and intolerance of people that don't agree with you politically.
Mike said: "I am actually ok with this teachers exercise as long at its been done in proper context. In fact, it could be a valuable lesson in them understanding how far we have come."
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Mike,
Thanks for your opinion. But I'm disappointed. If this weren't a strongly right leaning forum with the stink of anti-black racism lingering in the background (not from you though), I bet you would have already been skewered.
1. I agree that the mindset was unfortunately totally different back then and that being a slaveowner was looked at as normal as terrible as it looks today.
2. But what does that have to do with teachers today asking how students would punish slaves for not obeying their masters? You're going off on a tangent with most of your post.
3. There's absolutely no excuse for what these teachers did. They resigned to boot with no defense of their actions that I'm aware of. Why even mention if it were "done in proper context"? It is almost as if you're bending over backward to give them the benefit of the doubt.
4. I know you're not black from your posts. Do you think most black people would feel the same way about these teachers? That's a rhetorical Q.
5. Other than from you and me, I recall very few posts in the forum taking the anti black racism side of issues. And most here are cons. Coincidence? I don't think so.
Is this assignment assuming the student currently are slave owners or is it asking the students to "transport" themselves back in time and comment in that perspective?
Comments from both eras would be interesting.
I think the assignment could encourage a worthwhile discussion!
John
the stink of anti-black racism lingering in the background
WX, I would get banned for giving this comment the response it deserves. Try to read my mind. TIA.
Thanks much for the comments.
I need to adjust my thoughts a bit.
To be honest, all I did was give you my opinion on the topic of US slavery based on the last couple of years of peoples call to defrock US hero's and symbols because they represented or went along with something offensive by todays standards that was very acceptable hundreds of years ago.
I understood, incorrectly?(but please correct me if I'm wrong again) that these were liberal teachers trying to impose today's standards on people in the past for the abhorrent practices used in slavery, to get students to judge and condemn those people of that age.
I did not address this issue properly because I must have US slavery brain-itis.This was not exactly about that, though it clearly had applications/implications for US slavery.
It was about slavery in an age much earlier than the US was even settled...at least this specific example was.
This is a good lesson for me to read something over again carefully or to research it more.
This is what one particular issue was about:
"The assignment asked students how to punish a defiant slave using Hammurabi’s code, a set of laws in ancient Mesopotamia"(not the US)
Here is more from the state of WI, right after the incident.
Sun Prairie middle school teachers on leave after asking students how to 'punish' slaves
"The parent asked for the lesson to be taken down due to its “inappropriate and sensitive nature,” the investigation found, but the teacher refused. The parent called the principal, who told the teachers to remove the assignment. The teachers were placed on leave."
"District officials sent a message to staff and families Tuesday sharing the investigation’s findings. They said the assignment was “an egregious error that does not represent” the district’s commitment to racial equity.”
So now, I am guessing and it is honestly guessing the opposite of what I thought before, which is that the liberals were not teaching the lesson but were actually complaining about it because it caused students to contemplate slavery from the mindsets of the slave owners in ancient times, which made it seem more acceptable?
Either that, or that it caused students to think about something bad in the past that they don't think they should know about?
Or could it be that white people were the slaves back then?
If I am wrong, please let me know.
If in fact, this assumption is correct, then I agree completely with John. To understand the past properly, why not teach it accurately?
Life was totally brutal in many realms back then. Many, many wars and killing that sometimes involved raping women and murdering women and children. Slaves were very acceptable..........yes, white slaves too. The Israelite's/Jews being slaves is a huge part of the Old Testament.
Slaves were treated like animals in many cultures......for thousands of years.
Women were 2nd class citizens until recently. Just getting the right to vote barely over a century ago.
It's only in this recent age of enlightenment. That the fights to obliterate racial, gender and sexual preference injustices has finally given those groups equal rights in most respects, certainly legally.
I got to witness one of the biggest successful progressive pushes growing up, watching my hero, MLK risk and lose his life for the cause of equal rights for minorities, back when that fight was still extremely unpopular with many well followed mainstream players/entities and even the government.
We still have a bit more to go with weeding out some bad cops that are being protected but sadly, we have created so many fake racism narratives for political agenda that its threatening to destroy the credibility of this call for justice......being used by those that have political agenda that is completely different than MLK's agenda and objectives........completely different!!
So we teach evolution of the human species in the physical sense and history of all sorts of events and situations that includes politics and sociology. The gradual development of science/medicine/technology with thousands of inventions and discoveries and advancements of knowledge.
What's the problem with teaching the ethical evolution of the human race which would clearly require a comprehensive and honest discussion/understanding of slavery in the past?
Isn't that what we are talking about here?
I'm not following where this discussion is going.
It is simple to me. The teachers asked the children to determine how they would punish slaves for disobeying their masters and wouldn't back down with this assignment after being asked to do so. The principal put them on leave because it was inappropriate. (I earlier said they resigned..my bad.)
I said, "the stink of anti-black racism lingering in the background"
"WX, I would get banned for giving this comment the response it deserves. Try to read my mind. TIA."
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Tim, I don't care how you feel about this forum as I still think there's a pretty strong hint of anti-black racism based on the tendency for a lack of support for the black people on issues such as police shootings. I read various forums and sometimes I feel this one should be sued for lack of support for the black people compare to the others. I don't know who is actually racist and you very well may not be racist. But if I had to bet a lot of money one way or the other, I'd take the bet that there are one or more racists here. I'm confident Met Mike is not at all.
"I'm not following where this discussion is going."
I have done back flips explaining my views on this issue and can't be any more clear about that part(even while being puzzled about what the fuss is about, including thinking the fuss was different at first-which would not change my view) but have yet to hear anything about what your actual view is, other than that you don't understand my discussion/views.
And you've still not explained to me why you called it "sickening stuff"
I really would sincerely like to hear why its sickening stuff and will ask again.....please and will look at it again with whatever you see that way because I could totally be missing that.
Later. I have not time now as my disabled brother needs help with something. I thought I was being clear though.
I would be in a heap of trouble in my family if I were anti racist. We just took our 3 biracial grandchildren home.
Our black son in laws family is loaded with some of the most wonderful HUMAN BEINGS that I have ever known in my 65 years.
Our son in law is an awesome dad, husband and son in law.
The biggest problem that my wife has with him and me is that at family gatherings, Jovan and I will often ignore everybody else and talk non stop for hours.
Sports, politics and big city stuff. He grew up in Chicago, metmike in Detroit.
Other than with my own dad, I've never felt so connected to another person in my older adult life.
My wife grew up here(small town), doesn't care for sports and hates talking politics.
Anyway, it's not just me. Jovan is a sincere gentleman that treats everybody with respect and always listens to their views.....even when they disagree with him.
He gave up his blossoming career in hotel management(where his degree is in) to move here to Evansville for his wife and family, knowing almost nobody. Now his talent has caused him to have a good leadership position in management at EMI Plating.
We are so proud of him!
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jo-van-wiggins-0526aa201?trk=people-guest_people_search-card
I love getting Jovan's perspective on racial issues. He's very informed and objective. On racists, his view is not to hate them but he says they are just ignorant because they don't know any better, having been raised that way.
This is the right attitude to have in my opinion, similar to MLK. Jovan lives in a community that sometimes is very white, like at our church where he became an instant, well loved celebrity, with many people there never really knowing many black people personally.
My wife got him his first job at EMI and he worked his way up. She said to me shortly after he was hired. "People that just met him are telling him their life story an hour later!!"
He's just so dang likeable.
Larry,
I think that comments like that will only be seen as personal attacks by others which is non productive.
Of course our ultra conservative friends here can still use a few more lessons on authentic racism, which is often hard to recognize today because of so much fake racism but I am happy to provide it, while still respecting their views.
In today's world, people mostly flock to just sites that tell them the news the way they like to hear it.
I am happy to NOT do that here and tell readers THE OBJECTIVE NEWS, the way that it is and that includes anti racism messages.
If we still have racists coming here, despite the anti racist messages from me(and you) then they are not completely rejecting that.
Deciding whether a person is a racist or not should not make any difference in how we treat them. If they disagree with our belief system, attacking them for theirs is the surest way to guarantee that they will never listen to anything that we have to say.
It causes a defensive posture and more time defending THEIR position, instead of listening to ours(general ours).
The objective, ideally is to keep people in a productive conversation by respecting/tolerating their views, no matter how vehemently we disagree or how wrong we are convinced that they are.
That's the only way to earn respect from people that you disagree with. Don't judge them, regardless of the voice in our heads screaming at us to do that.
Let facts, evidence and the truth as we see it speak for us.
The 2 people that I admire the most in my life time are my father and Martin Luther King.
OK, thanks Larry!
I hope your brother is ok. I know he has a ton of health problems.
You guys got your COVID shots right?
But if I had to bet a lot of money one way or the other, I'd take the bet that there are one or more racists here. I'm confident Met Mike is not at all.
So, in your opinion, if a person gets into a confrontation with police, and is shot, is it usually the fault of the police, or only if that person is black?
If my neighbor doesn't mow his lawn for a month, and I call him lazy, is it only racist if he is black?
I have heard it is racist to not believe in white privlige or systemic racism.
If you agree with most, or all of these statements, then I am certain you think this forum, and this country is racist.
I think the term "racist" has been redefined to the point that it means nothing at all.
"But if I had to bet a lot of money one way or the other, I'd take the bet that there are one or more racists here. I'm confident Met Mike is not at all."
metmike: Tim/Larry/others,
Calling somebody(s) a racist is always the best way to get them to feel attacked and defend themselves and tune out the attacker.
Much better for the would be attacker to just make positive points in discussions involving racism without attacking them personally and losing them.
"It’s not a tactic I am using. It is the truth. Helping them know their common humanity without inducing inferiority brings positive results"
Thank you metmike, for your comments about slavery.
IMHO, one should not keep the knowledge of slavery from our children… slavery is part of the development of the human species.
The Israelites were slaves in the Egyptian Empire.., the Bible mentions slavery several times… the Roman Empire was built upon slavery (40% of the population of Italy were slaves, at that time.. and some historians believe that 70% of the City of Rome were slaves)… the Native Americans practiced slavery to a small extent… late in the 19th Century, the US Navy battled the Muslim slave traders of the Barbary Coast… and even today, I read, they openly sell slaves in Libya.
And last, but not least, it needs to be pointed out that , some 400 years ago, the Ashanti Empire in West Africa became rich by hunting members of their neighboring tribes and then selling them as slaves to the ships coming from the “New World”.
IMHO, one needs to teach our children about slavery, in a tactful way, and from a modern, humane type of view.
These teachers may have gone about it the wrong way. Teaching them about slavery is ok, but forcing them to play the role of a slave master, punishing a disobedient slave, was wrong, IMHO. This teaches the child the concept of “supremacy”.
You are quite correct, when you said, we must accept the fact that historical figures of yesteryear grew up in a different environment… a time when people had different sets of values. We cannot judge them by our modern standards. Mankind has evolved since then. Who knows, a few hundred years from now, people may look at us with disgust.
Coming to think about this subject…
In the year 15 B.C., my hometown in Southern Germany was invaded by the Roman army and the city was renamed in honor Emperor Augustus. It is quite possible that I am the descendant of slaves of the Roman Empire. In the 16th century, the City Council decided to erect a statue of Augustus….Idiots!
Mike said:
"OK, thanks Larry!
I hope your brother is ok. I know he has a ton of health problems.
You guys got your COVID shots right?"
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Thank you. He's ok relative to his "normal". Some of the things most of us take for granted are quite difficult for him to do. He does have a variety of medical problems but his bad chronic lower back pain combined with his morbid obesity is what makes him mainly bed bound, which complicates his other health issues. He eats all of his meals in bed though he used to eat dinner in the den. This and other things makes him often dependent on me, However, I encourage him to try to do as much on his own in his bed so as not to become an "enabler", to help him feel better about what he can still do, and to free up my time somewhat. It is a fine line between supporting and enabling. Emotions make it tricky.
He used to handle his 3-4/day sugar testing and sliding scale insulin injections almost always by himself, which made him feel good and also freed me up. However, he now has become more reliant on others to handle these. If he had to, he could still do these to some extent. However, his vision is not too good and I worry about mistakes. Also, he sometimes has jittery hands. He used to decide on how much insulin each time but now is leaving that up to me much more. That includes record keeping, which he has trouble doing.
We both had COVID in January despite us both always being extremely careful. I got it from him. We don't know how he, who is almost always in bed got it, but it had to be from either a medical visitor or more likely his one employee (who helps him during weekdays). That guy never got it, but his wife and bro did. So, maybe he was a carrier??
So, we have yet to get our shots. Plus he's on immune suppressing drugs for his kidney transplant. So, he needs to be cautious.
"These teachers may have gone about it the wrong way. Teaching them about slavery is ok, but forcing them to play the role of a slave master, punishing a disobedient slave, was wrong, IMHO. This teaches the child the concept of “supremacy”.
OK, I can see that point. Is this what bothered you Larry?
I still wouldn't think that it was intended to teach them that supremacy but in fact, the complete oppose, it would be repulsive to them and cause to reject such a thing.
What kid would respond with "cut off his ear!" (the correct response to what to do to a slave that misbehaved in this manner) and think, "dang, I wish a really was the master, so that I could do that!"??
Maybe Jeffrey Dahmer or some other deranged kid that liked to abuse animals growing up but 99.9% of children should have thought "OMG, slavery was barbaric, thank goodness we evolved since then!!"
Which of course, would be the lesson the teachers would teach by allowing their students to imagine it how horrid this was. For sure they were not trying to delight them by giving them such power.
I can see it being even better by putting them in the role of the actual slave.
In thinking more about this, that does seem like the much, much better choice. This must have been what people objected about.
Was this justification for getting rid of all those teachers? There must have been something more to the story.
You wrote: “… If this weren't a strongly right leaning forum with the stink of anti-black racism lingering in the background….”
I find this comment a bit offensive.
Sure, this forum is frequented by many “conservatives”… investors, traders, business people, professionals in the farming industry, etc It is not surprising that these people favor “conservative” views, rather than “extreme left” ideologies.
However, accusing them of anti-black racism is quite far-fetched, IMHO.
Certainly, we complain about the chaos and anarchy in our inner cities, however our dislike of such behavior includes all races… the BLM, on one end of the spectrum, and the white Antifa on the other end (as well as the KKK, from which we don’t hear much anymore nowadays).
I have read many posts supporting peaceful protests. However, burning down businesses and looting stores is not “protest”. Many black people have distanced themselves from the BLM movement, because, in their opinion, the ones who loot and burn give the vast majority of decent black folks a bad name.
In addition to the property damage, the BLM movement is also known for its communist ideologies… and after living through decades of a Cold War, most of the older folks in the US do not want to be associated with such ideologies (and this has nothing to do with race)
One of the most inspiring black people of all times, was Dr. Martin Luther King.I am sure, he is rolling over in his graves, seeing what has happened to his “dream”. People of different colors are not living together peacefully, as he had hoped. There are more clashes between rioters and police than in a long time.
Talking about the daily shootings and killings happening in our big cities, is not creating a “stink of anti-black racism”… it’s simply describing a fact of life, and those who talk about it sometimes even come up with ideas to improve the lives of those citizens.
As I said, I don’t recall reading any racist posts on this forum. However, if I wanted to see racism , I would only have to tune in to the comments of some of our Representatives in Washington DC (and that would be racism in the other direction)
Holy Cow! Your brother, with his severe diabetes and health issues/overweight and also taking immunosuppressants had COVID........and LIVED! Hallelujah!
Man, that must have scared the crap out of you, when he first tested positive. This is exactly the type of person that dies from COVID.
I know that you're very medically informed/educated and understand stats better than anyone.
Regardless, I'm glad it turned out that way!
Mike said: "Holy Cow! Your brother, with his severe diabetes and health issues/overweight and also taking immunosuppressants had COVID........and LIVED! Hallelujah!
Man, that must have scared the crap out of you, when he first tested positive. This is exactly the type of person that dies from COVID.
I know that you're very medically informed/educated and understand stats better than anyone.
Regardless, I'm glad it turned out that way!"
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Thanks, Mike!
Actually, he had already been sick on and off for a week with coughing and a low grade fever before I suddenly started having symptoms. I had just eaten dinner with him in his room just before I became ill because I wasn't then suspecting he had COVID since he often gets coughs and low fevers. Also, he was mainly bedbound and I was extremely cautious for my bro's sake. So, the last thing I thought was he had COVID.
Well, I soon suddenly developed a 100 fever, my highest in years along with a bit of a dry cough. Out of precaution, I immediately (at 3 AM) drove to the ER and tested COVID +. I was in a near state of shock. I immediately realized that my bro had to have COVID, too, and that I had to have gotten it from him. This scared the living daylights out of me due to his major risk factors! I had never worried too much about myself but dreaded for nearly a year what would happen to him if he were to get it. We regularly pray together every evening at dinner, but those prayers suddenly became more intense.
The next few days, when his fever, cough, and fatigue got worse, I was in a near state of panic even though I kept a calm demeanor. He somehow remained fairly calm and slept a lot. I had trouble sleeping. I kept checking his oxygen levels and temp. I contacted his doc. He told me that as long as my bro's O2 avg didn't drop to the low 90s and he didn't get shortness of breath that I didn't need to call an ambulance (the only way to get him to the hospital). His fever peaked at ~101 over the next couple of days. But miraculously, his O2 remained in the middle 90s and he never got short of breath!
Actually, then my symptoms started to get worse. Although I felt absolutely miserable and was getting worse, I noticed he started to turn the corner! I was starting to get ecstatic thinking that maybe, just maybe, with perhaps the Almighty's help that, he may actually get through this. Although my fever kept getting worse (peak of 102) making me feel awful physically and causing me some worry about myself (I was hardly eating and I ended up losing 10 lbs), my bro's fever went away and never came back! He started eating much better. He had beaten this! About a week after he turned the corner, I did the same. I also never had shortness of breath or low 02.
So, we both beat COVID!
Thanks for sharing that Larry!
Wow, when you told me that you both had COVID and he didn't die, I was very glad but wondered how scary and challenging it might have been. That one ranks way up there. So glad it turned out that way.
My 32 year old(at the time) son had COVID late last year and was the sickest of his life and could have gone to the hospital but didn't.
My wife has an odd, serious anatomical breathing issue, when ever she sits back or lays down. She needs a C-PAP machine at night(does your brother have one?/ When she gets sick, her O2 when laying back will stay below 90 for lengthy periods,, unless hooked up to the CPAP machine. We are very familiar with those pulse-ox meters you must have been using for his O2. We have one for the bedroom and downstairs. I figured that a bad case of COVID might be a death sentence for her because of her anatomical anomaly.
So we were mainly making sure she was protected, if possible. I made her wear only N-95 masks when going out even though she didn't like the air resistance making it hard to breath. I cancelled chess at the one school that still wanted to have it, the junior high because I didn't want to take the chance of bringing it home.
I have a bad heart arrhythmia too that gets really bad at certain times. But still, your brother was the poster child for COVID vulnerable people/deaths and I'm so happy that we all either had it and survived or got vaccinated.
Mike said:
"My wife has an odd, serious anatomical breathing issue, when ever she sits back or lays down. She needs a C-PAP machine at night(does your brother have one?/ When she gets sick, her O2 when laying back will stay below 90 for lengthy periods,, unless hooked up to the CPAP machine."
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Mike,
My bro also uses a CPAP due to sleep apnea. However, it sounds like your wife's issue is worse for your wife than it is for my bro as his O2 hardly ever goes below 90 even when half asleep without the CPAP. It sometimes goes into the 91-93 range when falling asleep and may stay there until CPAP is put on. His every day normal wide awake O2 when not on CPAP is mid 90s.
I hope your wife stay safe! I would have bern scared, too, if she had gotten COVID.
Amazing technology, science and modern medicine is improving and saving our lives....allowing us to live a very long time while enjoying a better quality of life.
All of human history up until my dad was born didn’t see the amount of advancement as he’s seen in his life....in many realms.