US rail strike 2022: What would be affected if it happens?
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Started by metmike - Nov. 29, 2022, 9:33 p.m.

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-63798110

President Joe Biden has said the government must step in to prevent a possible strike by railroad workers in the US.

The labour stoppage, which could happen as soon as 9 December, would be the first in the US in decades and analysts say it would cripple the US economy if it proved long lasting.

What would be affected by a rail strike?

The workers who would go on strike work for freight rail companies, such as Berkshire Hathaway's BNSF and Union Pacific. 

They carry about 40% of the country's freight each year - vital goods including shipments of grain and other crops; chemicals such as fertiliser; three-quarters of new cars; roughly 70% of the country's coal and 30% of packaged food; as well as thousands of other products destined for store shelves.

If workers walk out, that would knock roughly 7,000 freight trains per day out of service, wreaking havoc on supply chains across the country - driving up prices and causing a political mess just before Christmas. 

For months, business groups have been calling on the government to prevent a strike, warning of economic calamity.

The Association of American Railroads, which represents the industry, estimates that the country would need more than 460,000 trucks per day to handle the goods affected - a logistical impossibility.

Why is this happening?

Many railroad workers are unhappy about attendance policies that have been introduced in recent years, which they say make it difficult to take unplanned time off for issues like illness. 

The 12 unions and major rail companies spent more than two years trying to negotiate a new contract before turning to the government earlier this year to try to broker a compromise deal for the more than 100,000 workers involved.

US President Joe Biden announced a deal in September, guaranteeing an additional day of personal leave and 24% pay rise over the years of the contract, which covers 2020 to 2024, among other benefits.

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Previous story on this:

First US rail strike in 30 years averted with tentative deal - Biden

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-62908922

Comments
By metmike - Nov. 29, 2022, 9:39 p.m.
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Congress poised to avoid crippling rail strike, enraging workers

https://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/business-lobbying/3754724-congress-poised-to-avoid-crippling-rail-strike-enraging-workers/

The Association of American Railroads, which estimates that a strike would cost the U.S. economy $2 billion per day, released a poll this week showing that 72 percent of Americans want Congress to step in to ensure rail service continues.   

“Our entire nation would suffer: more than 750,000 workers, including many union members, would lose their jobs in just the first two weeks. Millions of families wouldn’t be able to get groceries, medications and other goods, and our economy would be paralyzed as it continues to recover,” Pelosi said in a statement Monday.  

It’s expected that the tentative deal forced through by Congress would only apply to unions that have not yet ratified contract agreements. The agreement provides workers with 24 percent raises over five years, including back pay, and makes it easier for workers to take time off without pay. 

Labor leaders have been working with Democrats on language to give workers a stronger contract, and Pelosi said that the party is “continuing to fight for more of railroad workers’ priorities, including paid sick leave.” But at the same time, Pelosi said that the bill wouldn’t include any “poison pills or changes to the negotiated terms.” 

Joe Bidenblew it. He had the opportunity to prove his labor-friendly pedigree to millions of workers by simply asking Congress for legislation to end the threat of a national strike on terms more favorable to workers. Sadly, he could not bring himself to advocate for a lousy handful of sick days,” Hugh Sawyer, treasurer at Railroad Workers United, a grassroots rail workers group, said in a statement.  

Still, it’s unclear how Democrats would get 10 Senate Republicans to go along with that lan. 

 In September, GOP senators insisted that Congress force through a tentative contract based on recommendations from a Biden-appointed board that didn’t provide sick leave. Republicans balked at the idea of modifying the agreement to make it more worker-friendly and argued that labor unions were holding the U.S. economy hostage by pushing for better terms.


By metmike - Nov. 29, 2022, 10:13 p.m.
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Biden asks Congress to step in to halt looming pre-Christmas rail strike

https://nypost.com/2022/11/28/biden-asks-congress-to-intervene-to-stop-looming-rail-strike/


Biden wants 12 unions representing rail workers to agree to a deal that was reached in September, following a 20-hour negotiating session. 
AP/Charlie Riedel

 The agreement, which closely follows recommendations made by a Biden-appointed arbitration board in August, would give workers 24% raises and $5,000 in bonuses retroactive to 2020 — meaning the average employee would get an immediate payout of $11,000 if the deal is ratified.  

Workers will also receive an additional day of paid leave per year as well as unpaid time off for doctor’s appointments and medical procedures without being penalized under attendance rules — a key union demand. Employee health insurance premiums will also be capped at 15% of the total plan cost.

However, dissenting unions have balked at the lack of paid sick days in the tentative agreement.

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The powerful motivator behind workers who want more    

https://www.cnn.com/2022/09/16/economy/rail-strike-economy

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                Total Compensation 
  https://raillaborfacts.org/total-compensation/

 

Total annual compensation for Class I freight rail employees covered in the new round of national bargaining averaged approximately $130,000 in 2021, including pay and benefits — much higher than most U.S. industries.

    

FREIGHT RAILROAD EMPLOYEES: AMONG THE BEST PAID IN THE NATION

 

On average, a Class I rail employee covered in the current bargaining round:

  • Has been employed more than 14 years by their freight railroad
  • Received approximately $130,000 in total annual compensation (2021)
  • Received wage increases totaling 38 percent from 2009 through 2019
  • Received 3.4 percent annual wage increases (on average) during that period
  • Pays $229 monthly for health care coverage, regardless of family size
  • Enjoys 11 paid holidays and three weeks of vacation each year (on average)
 

Employees in the rail transportation industry are among the most highly compensated in the nation. As of 2020, when examining all U.S. rail transportation employees, including freight railroad employees, they ranked above 94 percent of the approximately 130 million employees in other industries in average annual compensation (BEA 2020 data).

The total annual compensation of the Class I freight rail employees covered in the current round of national bargaining averaged approximately $130,000 in 2021. This includes wages, health care and employer retirement contributions. This is almost 57 percent higher than the average full-time U.S. employee (approximately $84,000) for 2021.

In terms of wages, the average annual wage earned in 2021 by freight rail employees in the current round of bargaining was approximately $88,000, which is 52 percent higher than the equivalent annual 2021 wages and salaries of approximately $58,000 for the average U.S. Civilian worker (as reported by BLS – EMPLOYER COSTS FOR EMPLOYEE COMPENSATION – December 2021).

Railroad employees have also experienced significant gains in purchasing power that far outpaced inflation. From 2009 through 2019, during a long period of relatively low inflation, their compounded wage increases from national bargaining totaled 37.83 percent, which was about double the rate of inflation (GWIs 37.8 percent vs 19.2 percent inflation).  In other words, railroad employee wage increases have averaged – year in and year out, whether inflation is high or low – around 3.4 percent after compounding.

    

High Wages Over Long-Term Careers, Robust Retirement Benefits

 

In addition to high pay and exceptional benefits, railroad employees enjoy longer careers than workers in other industries. Railroad employee average tenure is 14.6 years, and median tenure is 13 years. By comparison, the United States Department of Labor reports that the median tenure for private sector workers generally is 4.1 years.

Finally, railroad retirees receive substantial retirement benefits because they are covered under the Railroad Retirement Act, not the Social Security Act. In fiscal year 2021, approximately 519,000 beneficiaries received $13.2 billion in benefits.

Due to the structure of the Railroad Retirement system, these benefits are significantly higher than those provided by Social Security, and railroads bear a much larger share of taxes to fund these enhanced benefits.

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These already overpaid, greedy workers want to hold the country hostage before Christmas because a +24% additional increase in their already high wages wasn't good enough.

Part of the cost of shipping is from paying workers in that industry. The shipping cost is added to the price of goods and  this passed on to consumers who pay for it in the end with their HARD EARNED money which they likely have much less of than these greedy workers. This will make inflation even worse.     

Too bad we can't just fire all the ones refusing to agree to the lucrative terms and replace them with people who would love to have jobs like this. 

Unions  served a useful purpose in the past, protecting working Americans from abusive situations by company.

However, this shows how counter productive they become at times,   ABUSING their power like this.  


By joj - Nov. 30, 2022, 4:50 p.m.
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This liberal thinks the unions should have taken the deal (8 out of 12 did).

They get 3 weeks paid vacation which is more than most workers.

A whopping 24% raise.

As for paid sick days.  They can use their vacation days and nobody is losing their job for being sick.  For extended illness they have insurance.

More paid sick days will just encourage absenteeism.

My family and friends call me a cruel capitalist.  MF posters call me a socialist.  I think I'm somewhere near the center.  I lean left on social issues and lean right on fiscal. 

By metmike - Nov. 30, 2022, 5:37 p.m.
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Thanks joj!

By metmike - Dec. 1, 2022, 7:25 p.m.
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joj, your comments are much appreciated here. 

I call you........my friend. We need more people like you in the world.


Wonderful  to see both parties in  Congress working together on something this time!

Senate Votes To Avert Rail Strike—But Denies Railroad Workers’ Request For 7 Paid Sick Days

https://www.forbes.com/sites/saradorn/2022/12/01/senate-approves-contract-to-avert-rail-strike-but-denies-unions-request-for-more-sick-leave/?sh=3ddb77b27d6b


Article below written before Congress forced them to settle but its one of the few that I found that actually explains the details of the problem from a sympathetic voice.......a TRUCKERS labor organization!

join-ooida

https://www.ooida.com/membership/

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https://landline.media/a-rail-strike-looms-again/

The big issue?

But some union officials have reportedly asked lawmakers to stay out of the dispute. Their members are mad. Paid time off seems to be the big issue. But there’s more to it than that.

Too few workers and punishing schedules are the larger underlying issues. Understaffed railroads require workers to be on-call for work on short notice. When a crew returns from a trip that can be days long, it’s put on a list of available crews. The fewer workers available, the shorter the list. A crew can be called back to work at virtually any time. Train crews don’t get consistent weekends or days off, and taking unauthorized time off can result in firing. One union representative said it was time to stop the rail management “from firing people for being sick.”

How serious are the unions?

Consider what the dissenting unions have turned down. The proposed five-year contract includes a 24% overall pay increase over five years, including a more than 14% increase immediately. According to the National Railway Labor Conference, the railroad negotiating group, “average rail worker wages will reach about $110,000 per year by the end of the agreement. When health care, retirement, and other benefits are considered, the value of rail employees’ total compensation package, which already ranks among the highest in the nation, would average about $160,000 per year.”

Since the last contract expired in 2020, and terms of the proposed agreement are retroactive. If the new contract goes into effect, rail workers will get an immediate payout that will average $11,000.

Never mind the broad pay increases, can you imagine voting against a contract that would put a check for $11,000 in your hands in the months just before the holidays? That’s exactly what four unions did.

Drawn-out rumblings

It should not have surprised anyone. One of those unions had voted to strike back in July by an astounding majority of 99%, though the sheer size of the proposed settlement may have tempered strike fervor somewhat. The largest union to reject the contract did so by a margin of 51% to 49%.

Nevertheless, the contract rejection stands. Some people speculate that should Congress enforce the contract, many rail workers will simply quit.

“There’s a good chance the holdout unions agree to disagree with some/many members taking their two years’ back pay and leaving the industry. That’s what I’d be watching in the new year,” said DAT’s Croke.

Meanwhile, the railroads that brought on the continuing staffing crisis by aggressively eliminating workers are proposing another reduction. They want to lower the current crew requirement of two workers per train down to one – presumably an engineer. U.S. freight trains average one and a half miles in length. Some are up to three miles long.

Railroad management called out

Martin Oberman, chairman of the federal Surface Transportation Board recently called out the largest railroads for policies that have led to the current turmoil. The STB watches out for shippers’ interests, and shippers are very unhappy.

Oberman spoke at a mid-November conference sponsored by Progressive Railroading, a publisher that declined to share a transcript of his comments. An STB spokesman said the agency didn’t have a transcript, adding that the chairman likes to speak more or less off the cuff.

But Oberman’s comments were reported in FreightWaves by John Kingston. According to Kingston, Oberman pointed out that “between January 2016 and February 2020, Class I railroads reduced their workforces by 29,000 workers.” That meant the rail companies had no “cushion and resilience to respond to inevitable disruptions.”

By the start of 2022, Oberman said, the level of service by the big rail companies had “fallen off a cliff.” Faced with too few workers to handle the freight, the big railroads had to embargo certain shippers. In other words, they stiffed their customers.

“One customer needed to euthanize ‘millions’ of chickens because it couldn’t get them to market, and ethanol plants reported to the STB numerous short-term shutdowns because there were no railcars to get product to market,” Kingston wrote.

“It is beyond question that the service problems were the result of intentional drops in the workforce,” Oberman said.

“Today the railroads tell us they are still having a hard time recruiting and retaining workers and try to blame this on the ‘Great Resignation,’” Oberman said. “The fact is the railroad’s personnel practices made these jobs much less desirable.”

Of course, trucking knows a little about undesirable jobs.

Oberman’s STB lacks the power of its predecessor, the Interstate Commerce Commission that once ruled over virtually every detail of both rail and trucking operations. But it was refreshing to read of an official calling out a group of wealthy, powerful companies that screwed up big time.

Trucking could use a voice like that. LL

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I realize that their situation/work conditions are different(but I came in on weekends and other times when there was bad weather and worked for free)  and people's work ethic is not what it used to be but in 11 years working my last job as chief meteorologist at WEHT in Evanville IN,  I called in sick 1 day.

They are not happy with 77 days in 11 years and getting paid for all those days?

I went to college to get an atmospheric science degree and my top salary in my last year there, 1993 was $35,000. 

OK, I loved almost everything about my job and they obviously don't. That is often a great indicator for happiness in life.

By cutworm - Dec. 1, 2022, 7:49 p.m.
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I was a member of a union for 30 years. At contract time mob mentality ruled. The BA would lead you and you better vote his line was the pier pressure. We went on strike one time to "save our double time on Sunday", 2 weeks of walking picket and the company would pay double time for 1 year. Then time and one half for 1 year . Then straight time. And the union leadership screamed that we won. BUL#%& We would have been better off not striking. 

Mob mentality. JMHO

By metmike - Dec. 1, 2022, 8:44 p.m.
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Thanks cutworm!

Got to see the power of the UAW(United Auto Workers) union in Detroit for around 5 years.


When going to school, starting as a senior in high school,  I worked at the Dearborn Assembly plant and also the Iron foundry during the Summers and college M and Fri part time (because pay day was Thursday and workers started the weekend early and called in sick on Fridays and sometimes extended the weekends a day late and called in sick on Mondays so they would have college kids come in, with no time to train us, there would be 2 of us doing 1 job sometimes or if they didn't need us, send us home with 4 hours pay).

Some tough jobs in those days.

And dangerous at the foundry. The guy I was training to do my job there the last week of August before going back to school in 1978, had a huge hot metal splash roll down his asbestos coveralls and into his boot and it burned a huge hole right thru the top of his foot. 

I was a metal sampler and was in back of him, showing him how to collect the metal from the slot in the side of the vat that was being heated to 2,000 deg. F ? and he didn't do anything wrong. A bunch of it squirted out and went down into his boot.


That would could have been me on any day the previous 3+ months!


We were supposed to wear tight asbestos shin guards to prevent that but nobody did because they were really uncomfortable and only made it seem hotter. 

This was Summer and when you were scrapping slag off the top of a vat, it was hundreds of degrees in the air around you. 

The foreman ran around yelling for everybody to put on their shin guards after that.

The UAW had made a deal for a 10 year early retirement package working there because it was so dangerous and unhealthy.  You could retire in 20 years with the same benefits of somebody at 30 at the other plants.  The air was extremely smokey from emissions.

I worked midnights and during the next day would be coughing up and blowing my nose with the mucus being black. It finally cleared up during the day on Sunday..........then back to work for another 5 days of it. You could hardly see 30 feet in front of you from the black crap in the air with a trolley that carried vats of extremely hot metal overhead, some times with it splashing out and looking like the 4th of July when it hit the floor and went flying out 360 degrees with anybody close by racing for cover even though we were wearing asbestes suits with head covers with a  thick  plastic  face covering protection.

When we were scrapping slag of the top of vats  several times, we needed to get new head/face covers because they would melt and become so distorted that you couldn't see out anymore. The intense heat would go thru the suit and cause intense pain while you did it, so you had to keep standing back  for a brief period when it was too much to take. 

Funny thing is that after working there for a few weeks as a 20 year old, I didn't mind it one bit. The jobs were brutal but 70% of the time you just sat around waiting for another vat. 

A week after I left, to go back to Univ of MI in Ann Arbor, my dad, who worked as an industrial engineer in the Assembly plant went there to get my last pay check. He got me those jobs.

Nothing ever scared him but he said he was petrified and couldn't believe what it was like in there and wanted to get out ASAP(there was a metal splash and he could hardly see where he was going). Of course he wasn't wearing protection like we did.

He felt bad for getting me a job like that but I never complained because it was unbelievable money at the time and had some much harder physical jobs in the assembly plant. 


In the assembly plant, the guys would refuse to work sometimes if they had a disagreement with the foreman. "I want my union steward, that's not my job"

Then, they would get 4 hours off to have a meeting with the union guy and the management in an office up front  about some stupid, trivial grievance.  They would just use silly excuses to take advantage of that but the UAW had enormous power and management knew it. 

By metmike - Dec. 2, 2022, 1:03 a.m.
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Hey cutworm, 

What was that place/union that you mentioned, if you don't mind me asking.?


Amazing the difference between unions. 

Was that the place where you got the nickname "Cutworm"?

By cutworm - Dec. 2, 2022, 2 p.m.
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yes it was at the grocery warehouse that I got the nick name Cutworm 

By metmike - Dec. 2, 2022, 2:07 p.m.
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That was a great story!              


  How I got the nickname Cutworm                       

                5 responses |                3 likes     

                Started by cutworm - May 29, 2020, 9:56 p.m.            

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/53004/

By metmike - Dec. 2, 2022, 2:28 p.m.
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At the foundry described above, I was the young college kid working a Summer job amongst the school UNeducated and made an embarrassing mistake that one of the seasoned vets in his 30s thought was hilarious and this huge guy that also had a loud mouth and constantly opinionated(and one of the 2 white guys out of a department of 15-the rest were really nice people)  declared my name was "Euchre" Uker.

And he used it in a demeaning way for the next 3+ months as often as he could. 

Euchre/Uker is a huge card game in Michigan. 

Getting Uker'd is the ultimate blunder for a person who calls the suit and then the other side wins the round and the penalty is 2 points for the opponent's team.


https://www.pagat.com/euchre/euchre.html

If the makers take fewer than three tricks they are said to be euchred, and the defenders score two points.

I'll tell you what the blunder was next.



By cutworm - Dec. 2, 2022, 5:48 p.m.
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One of the things in the story was: " New people from different cultures. .... How to deal with people who were different than me, not necessarily in a bad way but different. ". I have always believed that people being different was a good thing, that we need to learn how to live together.

By metmike - Dec. 2, 2022, 6:36 p.m.
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Before getting hired at the Ford Rouge  metal foundry for my Summer job in May 1978, I'd done a ton of jobs at the Ford Rouge Assembly Plant. Unloading tires from railcars, assembly line and so on. One of the easiest jobs in the plant was driving a fork truck/hi-lo and I trained myself to use it. Not that hard really.

So when I started at the new plant, I was hired as a fork truck driver because every job they had was totally different than the assembly plant........except for that one.

Earlier, I mentioned liquid, hot metal that was transported 25 feet in the air in huge vats across the plant. Sometimes there were small splashes along the way and it was like a little 4th of July with the red hot and very bright SMALL splashes going in every direction after hitting the ground.

However, the areas where they poured the metal into a different contained to heat and remove impurities and treat to get the exact right balance was where the biggest spills happened.  

Underneath those spots because of hundreds of previous spills, the terrain was like the surface of the moon from the splashes turning rock solid and building up over years?

During the first few days on the new job, I was driving a fork truck and can't remember my reason to drive it over that spot. Trying to get something? Taking a short cut? 

Anyway it got really stuck in a huge rut with no chance to get it out and I had to abandon it. 

It might be no big deal except that it was right underneath where the metal got poured several times a day(why there were potholes and mounds of metal that I wasn't familiar with).

So it sat there for at least a  day and each time metal was poured above it, hot liquid metal splashes came cascading down and bombarded the fork truck that was leaning heavily to one side from being stuck  and all the guys would cheer and laugh.  Most of us stood around and watched when the metal was being moved and poured(and breathed the thick black soot that even a mask didn't block out).

That's when one of my jobs became "metal sampler". I took samples and sent them to a lab upstairs and they would do an analysis, then we would dump bags of stuff in the vats to alter the chemistry based on the analysis. 

Easy and hot job.........except the guy I trained may have lost his foot. Now I remember it was my last day there before going back to school. 

Earlier, I mentioned the metal splashing, hitting his protective asbestos suit  and running down into his boot.

He was right in front of me, so I didn't even see it or understand the risk all Summer of that happening to me.

All I saw was him throwing down the sampler and suddenly screaming and jumping 3 feet off the ground. Then one big guy came running over and tackled him and held him down and another guy whipped out a sharp knife, cut his boot laces and pulled off his boot.

I was just a shocked spectator standing next to him with no idea what in the heck just happened.

When they pulled the boot off, it was even more shocking. You could see the path the metal took down his shin/inside his boot with a shallow fissure, burning thru his sock,  then it traveled down to the top of his foot, where it burned thru and made an irregular shaped, widening but deepening hole that stopped in the middle of his foot, where it pooled and burned a DEEP hole. 

No bleeding because it cauterized all the blood vessels. 

 I did exactly what he did at least 500 times that Summer!

 The guys that got his boot off acted like it was no big deal and the conversation between the workers the rest of that day turned into a sort of debate about how much Ford Motor pays a person for losing a foot, as opposed to losing a finger or a hand. Some of them seemed to know the exact amount for each. 


How Much Is Your Arm Worth? Depends On Where You Work

https://www.propublica.org/article/how-much-is-your-arm-worth-depends-where-you-work

By metmike - Dec. 3, 2022, 8:02 a.m.
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So this had me thinking more about student loan forgiveness.

I spent 7 years going to 3 colleges (U of Detroit, Eastern MIch University and U of Michigan) and only took out 1 student loan for $1,000 and paid it back in less than 6 months.

that’s because I always had part time jobs going to school and full time jobs during the summers. when I moved to Ann Arbor, I worked as a security guard during the school year and as a dietary supervisor in the summers. My girl friend was a dietitian at the University of Michigan hospital and appreciated my knowledge in human nutrition because I was a competitive bodybuilder and they hired me as a dietary supervisor.
go figure. I was using the money to pay for tuition for my schooling to be an atmospheric scientist. 

so those Summer jobs, especially the ones in the factory while still living in detroit  with my parents paid massive money back then for a young single guy. Guys were raising big families on my wages. I say guys because I never saw a woman in the metal foundry and only remember 2 of them in the much larger auto assembly plant. Times were different but these were extremely physical jobs. I was an athlete that could bench press 350 lbs that liked to work, so i loved the money and didn’t mind the hard work……it was good for me.

I had 5 younger siblings, 2 brothers that were 6 and 9 years younger and I asked Dad years later how come he never got any of them factory jobs like he did me.

his comment was “those were hard jobs and I saw what happened at your last job”

I also had a math scholarship and got a lot of grant money for free.

but the point is, how should I view kids that borrowed massive amounts of money to pay todays rate of price gouging colleges for tuition….having their loans forgiven By Biden……who’s doing it for political reasons to win favor with that group.

on one hand, it seems pretty unfair to have to work extremely hard to earn money to pay  your way thru college, while others borrow the money and then have the loan forgiven.

but it’s actually the complete opposite. I was blessed with tremendous abilities and doing it my way pushed my limits  with challenges that developed me then in ways far beyond the classroom setting. I learned a great deal about discipline, work ethic and appreciating taking advantage of wonderful opportunities as well as being financially responsible and not getting in debt.

what Lesson does a young person get if they never work to concentrate on schooling and instead, borrow the 50,000 or whatever it is that todays colleges way over charged them…..only to have much of the money forgiven?

the harder that you work for something, the more you appreciate it and the money involved. 

Giving young, very capable adults free money and free stuff early in their careers is A curse to them.

I understand the need for assistance to help less fortunate people in challenging situations, especially those less endowed wiith coping skills and those raising families.

however, these are supposedly the brightest minds and most capable in society that need to be challenged to maximize their potential. They were already given what was seen as a favor by allowing them to not have to earn money to pay for their education while obtaining it. Telling them now that they never have to earn money to pay for that education, and that all the other tax payers will pay it for them is hurting them with a really bad lesson in life.

I don’t feel bad for people that had to work hard to earn money to pay for our education (I got grants and scholarships-so some was free) 

those that worked harder  to pay for their tuition  were blessed with the most valuable lesson of all very early in life. The type that helps set The tone for taking responsibility down the road.

if somebody had told me during those years that instead of doing all those hard jobs, I could have just borrowed all that money, when I knew I was capable of doing what I did, I probably would have considered borrowing more money.

not too many young people intentionally take a much tougher path to learn good life lessons when the easier path is offered to them. 

forgiving the loans is the cakewalk path and teaches a very  bad lesson and hurts the benefactors mentality in many ways. 

however, one can appreciate the dysfunctional system right now that encourages colleges to charge astronomical rates to educate our young people, then encourages young people to borrow enormous amounts of money to pay those price gouging rates.

somebody Coming out of college might have to work for a decade at a higher paying job to catch up to their friends not going to college when you dial in the debt burden to their income.

that needs to be changed but this isn’t the best way. In fact, it rewards colleges for price gouging!


By joj - Dec. 3, 2022, 12:28 p.m.
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I'm glad you mentioned the astronomical increases in college tuition.  I went to college in the 1970's and my student loans were modest relative to the income I gained in my first job out of college.  I paid it off in 9 months as I recall.

I thought online education options would put a lid on things but that doesn't seem to be the case.

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/student-loans/college-tuition-inflation/

I agree with all the points in your last post on this subject.  The only push back I can offer if I try to imagine being a student these days with tuition out of control would be the following.  The baby boomer generation (Democrats and Republicans) has saddled the younger generations with 20 trillion in debt that we won't suffer from at all.  Good luck kids.  But the young ones ask for a little taste of that gravy from the debt trough and WHOOAAA.  Us old folks shake our hypocritical wagging finger at the young ones and say "How dare you!"

Again, I don't disagree with any of your points, but at 65 years old I hesitate to yell "Get off my lawn".  :)

By metmike - Dec. 3, 2022, 2:18 p.m.
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joj,

Great point about it being hypocritical to cry foul about growing the debt about this particular item by people that are perfectly fine about growing the debt for their favorite debt growing endeavor or by  politicians that grow the debt for a living to get votes.

This is just another one of those bigger ticket/very expensive examples from the same playbook. 

In a world that has the highest inflation in numerous decades, it's hard to imagine much being done to control college education costs.

Maybe everything else will catch up. )-:


How The Federal Government Could Control College Costs

https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogerma/2018/05/29/how-the-federal-government-could-control-college-costs/?sh=48502ce11dcc

The rising cost of higher education is one of the most difficult realities facing Americans. According to The College Board, costs for four-year institutions have increased by 4% to 6% per year since 2000 (2% to 3% per year above inflation). As an example of what that means in actual dollars, the sticker price to attend Harvard University was $33,000 in 2000 and has increased to nearly $68,000 today.

Perhaps even more alarming, recent graduates have been unable to command increased salaries to match these rising costs. In fact, higher college tuition rates have led to increased student loan balances, causing people to delay key life milestones, such as getting married, starting a family, buying a house, or saving for retirement.

Is there something the federal government can do to control college costs?

Step 1: Restrict Access To Federal Student Loans

Completely removing access to federal student loans for a college's students could severely decrease demand. As a result, many colleges would likely need to keep their prices within the recommended price range or risk going out of business.

Step 2: Remove The Benefits Of Tax-Exempt Status

The federal government could require colleges to limit annual tuition price increases or threaten to take away some or all of the benefits of their tax-exempt status.


Bottom Line

The federal government has a couple of levers at its disposal to potentially control the cost of higher education - the ability to control access to federal student loans and the ability to challenge an organization's tax-exempt status. While utilizing these tools is easier said than done, ultimately, taking action could help improve the student loan problem and better position the next generation of graduates for success.

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10 Ways to Reduce College Costs        

Aim to have as little debt as possible after you finish school.

http://www.educationplanner.org/students/paying-for-school/ways-to-pay/reduce-college-costs.shtml

1. Consider dual enrollment.      

Check with your guidance counselor to see if you can take college classes while still in high school. The more credits you earn before you get to college, the fewer you will have to pay for when you go.              

2. Start off at a community college.      

Community college offers the most affordable education out there. Go to community college to complete the general education classes that every school requires, then transfer to a 4-year school where you can take classes more targeted to your specific degree.

It's important that you first make sure the 4-year school you plan to attend will accept your credits from community college.                    

3. Compare your housing options.      

If you prefer to live off campus rather than in a dorm, be aware that rent is not the only expense you may face. Utilities, food, transportation… the costs can add up pretty quickly.

Your least expensive option may be to live at home and commute, although you may not live close enough to your school to do that.                    

4. Choose the right meal plan.      

If you have a meal plan, make sure to use it. If you don't use it, you lose it.              

5. Don't buy new textbooks.      

Buy used or check to see if you can rent textbooks at your school. Then sell your books back online, to the bookstore, or to someone else.

Also look online for textbooks. You may find a better deal from an online retailer than from the school bookstore, or you may be able to download a less expensive electronic version to your computer or eReader.                    

6. Earn money while in school.      

Get a part-time job, look into work-study employment, or consider becoming a Resident Advisor (RA). Most schools pay their RAs and contribute to their room and board.

Too stressful to work and go to classes at the same time? Work during your summers off and use the money you earn for tuition, books, or other expenses.

Also look into cooperative education programs, which allow you to alternate between working full time and studying full time. This type of employment program is not based on financial need, and you can earn as much as $7,000 per year.

                          7. Explore all of your aid options.      

Apply for scholarships. Start looking early and apply every year you are in school.

Also check with your school's Financial Aid Office to see if merit-based aid is available. To qualify for merit-based aid, you may need to meet certain criteria. For example, you may need to excel in specific academic areas or certain sports.                    

8. Be responsible with your student loans.      

Student loans are not free. You must pay back your student loans with interest.

If you have student loan money left over after you pay your school expenses, ask the school to return the funds to your lender. The less money you borrow now, the less money you must repay later.

And pay the interest now instead of deferring it. The earlier you pay interest on your student loans, the less money you will shell out in the long run.                          

9. Graduate on time.      

Decide what you want to do with your life and what you want to major in before you go to school. By having a plan, you will avoid paying for classes that don't end up contributing toward your degree, and you'll be able to graduate on time.              

10. Take other cost-cutting measures.     

School is expensive. Consider taking these additional cost-cutting measures to better manage your budget while in school:        

  • Avoid credit cards—Credit cards can often (and quickly) lead to unnecessary debt. If you do get a credit card, use it wisely.        
  • Leave your car at home—Insurance, gas, parking, maintenance. Save money while you're in school and use public or campus transportation.
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11. Consider drug trafficking for massive profits.

The downside is that you will make so much money that you quit school and turn it into your career (-:  ........... totally kidding to see if you're paying attention. This is the worst idea on the planet!!!!

Organized crime: World’s most lucrative criminal activities

https://www.cnbc.com/2013/08/09/Organized-crime:-Worlds-most-lucrative-criminal-activities.html

   Drug trafficking is the most lucrative form of business for  criminals, with an estimated annual value of $320 billion. UNODC  says that roughly half of the income from organized crime comes  from illicit drugs proceeds, equivalent to between 0.6 percent  and 0.9 percent of global GDP.

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A much better idea would be to go into a profession FIGHTING AGAINST drug trafficking.


 

By metmike - Dec. 3, 2022, 2:43 p.m.
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