Notre Dame... ancient oakwood doesn't burn like that
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Started by GunterK - April 19, 2019, 12:25 a.m.

says the Chief Architect of Notre Dame

https://www.newswars.com/fmr-notre-dame-chief-architect-ancient-oak-doesnt-burn-like-that/

I don't know much about ancient wood, but I must admit I was shocked how quickly that  spire disappeared.

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By cliff-e - April 19, 2019, 9:58 p.m.
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That old church was in rough shape long before the fire.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUVKcVSpg44

By metmike - April 19, 2019, 11:30 p.m.
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Gunter,

I have to thank you again for tipping me off to another crisis.

You were the first one here, months ago, sounding the alarm about the crisis on the southern border. After doing some research/homework, the data going back years, that I recently found was mind boggling relating to a situation that existed long before the recent surge. 

In this case, its the vandalism of churches in Europe and specifically France. Keep in mind that the population of France is 67 million or 1/7th the population of the US.

When I first read the story that in the last 2 years, almost 2,000 Christian churches, in France were vandalized, I thought it was made up. The story is covered by numerous different sources but may not be entirely authentic. Stay tuned on if that mind boggling number at the bottom is true.

Regardless the first 2 articles below are 100% authentic, the first one from Newsweek and evidence of a major crisis in France which is being  completely hidden.

 

Catholic Churches Are Being Desecrated Across France—and Officials Don’t Know Why

 By   

https://www.newsweek.com/spate-attacks-catholic-churches-france-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800

World Religion

"France has seen a spate of attacks against Catholic churches since the start of the year, vandalism that has included arson and desecration.

Vandals have smashed statues, knocked down tabernacles, scattered or destroyed the Eucharist and torn down crosses, sparking fears of a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment in the country."


Vandals, arsonists target French Catholic churches

https://cruxnow.com/church-in-europe/2019/03/28/vandals-arsonists-target-french-catholic-churches/

Vandals and arsonists have targeted French churches in a wave of attacks that has lasted nearly two months."

Thugs set fire to churches and smear poo on walls amid warnings France’s Christian heritage is under attack from ‘militant secularism’

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/8804063/france-church-arson-attacks-vandalism-christian-heritage/

"Figures show 875 churches in France were vandalized last year

"Some politicians have claimed the country’s Christian heritage is under threat from petty criminals encouraged by “militant secularism”.

"Figures released by French police showed that 875 of France’s 42,258 churches were vandalised last year.

A further 129 churches reported thefts from the premises.

The interior ministry said that 59 cemeteries were also vandalised.

While the figures are down on the previous year when there were 1,045 acts of vandalism and 109 thefts they are still at a “worrying level”, according to Le Figaro.

Republicans MP Valerie Boyer said: “Every day, at least two churches are profaned.”

Critics of Prime Minister Edouard Philippe’s government have said it is not doing enough to stop the problem.

Following the fire at Saint-Sulpice, which cops say was started deliberately, the leader of the Republicans Laurent Wauquiez said the media had failed to give the issue more prominence.

He said: “Saint-Sulpice is not only a church, it’s a part of who we are. That’s enough of this code of silence.”

Opposition MPs Annie Genevard and Philippe Gosselin have called for a parliamentary investigation into anti-Christian acts in France.

Bishops have tended to play down the extent of the vandalism, with some pointing out that their problems are less severe than those of French Jews who have suffered from a rise in antisemitisim in recent months.

Historian Francois Huguenin, said that while only about five percent of French people were practicing Catholics, the church still remained the depository of social markers. It is therefore more difficult for [Christians] to express indignation than it is for other communities”.

By metmike - April 19, 2019, 11:51 p.m.
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So one has to ask, with churches being burned and vandalized across France at an incredible rate, including the 2nd largest one just last month in Paris.................and being covered up, what are the chances of an 800+ year old church that has never had a fire, with recently updated electrical wiring, had an electrical short that caused the fire.

And French authorities announced before it was knowable that it wasn't arson?

It could just be a coincidence though. I am still  trusting that investigators will tell us the truth after they find out the reason and hopefully, it wasn't like all the other churches across France that are being burned and vandalized.

Even  if it was an electrical short and not arson..............there is still a mega problem going on in France. Clearly Christian churches are being attacked everywhere. Who is doing this?  Gee, I wonder. We know its not Christians. We know its not Jews, who are being attacked even more according to reports. Gee, who's left? Athiests. Yeah, it must be atheists doing all of this because.....................ummm, well there doesn't seem to be a good reason and Frances atheists never did this before.

So who is left?  Yeah, the ones doing it that are at war with Christians and Jews because of religion.

I'm open to any other suggestions. 


https://www.cbsnews.com/live-news/notre-dame-cathedral-fire-cause-computer-glitch-rector-today-2019-04-19-live-updates/

By metmike - April 20, 2019, 12:39 p.m.
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"Athiests. Yeah, it must be atheists doing all of this because.....................ummm, well there doesn't seem to be a good reason and Frances atheists never did this before."

After doing more research and reading, I will have to take back my statement and apologize for the sarcasm. Apparently there is reason to suspect the "non" religious doing this(which means that maybe Muslims are NOT responsible for some/much of it). 

Christianity is under siege right now and in fact, you can say that the religion of Islam is under siege right now in the US.........by non Muslims. 

So basically, intolerance of a religion that is not yours or, if you are non religious, it seems the target may be Christianity. 

Interesting to note that these 3 groups are being attacked for their religions: Jews, Muslims and Christians. But the atheists are not being attacked for not being religious.

What's interesting is the change in the dynamic with time.

2,000 years ago, early Christians were persecuted by the Jews because the vast majority were Jewish.

Numerous centuries later, we had the holy wars between Islam and the Catholic Church............mass killing in the name of religion.

Then, we had the Catholic Church split into the Protestant Church(Martin Luther) and in Europe for centuries the Protestants and Catholics fought, sometimes with a lot of people killed for it. Ireland was a good example in recent history for how vicious that was.

One reason the early pilgrims came to this country was to practice religious freedom.

Up until the last few decades, Christianity was pretty much at peace with this religion in  the Western World, which accepted it as THE religion................since the vast majority were Christians themselves.

But the numbers have been falling in the Christian faith and the "strength in numbers" protection has eroded........in fact has led to these people being increasingly the targets of attacks. "Evangelical" is a bad word in the US and associated with extreme right wing views. The child abuse scandal with the Catholic Church priests. 

I know that many countries in Europe are very progressive/liberal and this mindset has often been critical of Christianity, which usually represents conservative values. 

So it appears we are in the early stages of the new reality, with the non religious gaining ground and persecuting the religious(Christians) as well as the previous religions fighting(with Islam increasing in strength and Christianity weakening).  Jews continue to be targets by especially the Muslims.


In the graph below, note what was happening between 2010-2015 in Europe and has been accelerating since then. You can also note that Muslims are increasing at the fastest rate of any religion.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/04/05/christians-remain-worlds-largest-religious-group-but-they-are-declining-in-europe/

Christians in Europe dying faster than they are being born

By GunterK - April 20, 2019, 8 p.m.
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During the Middle Ages, a wave of church-building swept across the countries of Europe. Every half-ways important city wanted to out-do their neighbors with a bigger and more spectacular church. When I look at pictures of my small hometown in Germany (250k population), before WW2, I see at least a dozen church steeples towering above the regular houses (no high-rise buildings at that time)

Of course, until the appearance of Martin Luther, the Church in Rome dominated everyone's life.

The above link states that French people nowadays are not that religious anymore. Yet, I must assume that even atheists respect these old churches as significant historic monuments. An atheist would be indifferent to the meaning of these churches, but he would not likely vandalize them.... such an act would require a dose o hatred.

So, who is vandalizing these churches?

I would like to share another story.... not related to the above, but then, maybe it is....

Some 3 or 4 years ago, I saw a newspaper article, with the headline "anti-semitism rears its head again in Germany"

Having been raised in Germany, my first thought was "OMG... not again!!!!!". 

This article was about the East German city of Dresden, and it showed a picture of young men marching the streets, carrying anti-semitic posters.

Then I took a closer look at the men in this picture, and my next thought was "these guys are not German!!!!!!' They are people from the M.E.!!!!" 

And then I realized.... they were immigrants, or the descendants of immigrants (so they could very well all be German citizens!!) 

We live in different times.... the world order of the last few centuries is no more.

By metmike - April 20, 2019, 11:25 p.m.
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Thanks Gunter!

I agree that the world order of a couple of decades ago is changing rapidly. There have been many good things but this current topic is a very bad thing............getting much worse. It's not like we are just discussing a political difference of opinion or religious view here, not even strongly held beliefs that upset people. We are talking people with an objective to KILL alot of other people that disagree with them on religion. 

I always enjoy topics that I know very little about but research provides information that sometimes is shocking and not well known by most people. This is one of them.

2016 Notre-Dame de Paris bombing attempt

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Notre-Dame_de_Paris_bombing_attempt

Islamic terrorism in Europe

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_terrorism_in_Europe

YearAttacks[a]Deaths[b]
Islamist terrorism in the European Union[9]
20061Not reported
20074Not reported
20080Not reported
20091Not reported
20103Not reported
20110Not reported
201268
201301
201424
201517150
201613135
20173362

According to a review by Swedish news agency Tidningarnas Telegrambyrå, about two thirds of attackers in Western Europe (44 out of the 68 individuals involved in the total of 37 attacks between 2014 and August 2017) had been influenced by Islamic hate preachers and became radicalised as a result of personal contact, rather than online.[

According to a 2017 interview with Islamism expert Lorenzo G. Vidino in the aftermath of the 2017 Barcelona attacks, jihadi terrorists in Europe mobilized by ISIL have tended to be second-generation immigrant Muslims

In 2017, the EU Counter-terrorism Coordinator Gilles de Kerchove stated in an interview that there were more than 50,000 radicals and jihadists in Europe.[14] In 2016, French authorities stated that 15,000 of the 20,000 individuals on the list of security threats belong to Islamist movements.

According to German anthropologist Susanne Schröter, attacks in European countries in 2017 showed that the military defeat of the Islamic State did not mean the end of Islamist violence.

Planned and foiled Jihadist terror attacks in Europe


Source: Petter Nesser, a researcher at Norwegian Defence Research Establishment writing for Politico. Numbers for 2017 and 2018 are preliminary.[22]
By metmike - April 21, 2019, 12:06 a.m.
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I am actually amazed that the US has not experienced many more terrorist attacks, especially considering what's going on in Europe right now.

It's obviously related to the % population of Muslims in Europe.

The US has a 1% Muslim population. France is 8%. Germany is 6%. Sweden is 8% too, which sort of surprised me but you had mentioned Sweden was having a lot of problems.

Islam by country

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country

metmike: The statistics don't lie. Take the attacks from the previous page and put it up against these numbers and the increase in Muslims in Europe correlates exactly with the increase in the Islamic terror attacks.

If you have one, then you have the other. ...........under certain conditions.

I'm from the Detroit area and a town that is almost 50% Muslim, Dearborn. If we went by the stats in France or Sweden, Dearborn and Detroit should be having massive terrorism.

But the Muslims in the Detroit area have been there a very long time, several generations and most of them seem to have assimilated. So the big picture is very complicated. I will guess that if you get too many young Muslims from the Middle East too quickly, the consequences are what France is having. 



From the Detroit Metro Times:

Everyone in Michigan should read this new report on the state's Muslims                

https://www.metrotimes.com/news-hits/archives/2017/09/14/everyone-in-michigan-should-read-this-new-report-on-the-states-muslims

Rebecca Karam: Despite constituting just 2.75 percent of the state’s population, our project demonstrates that Michigan Muslims make substantial contributions to the state’s well-being across many key fields, and that these findings contrast starkly with the typical depiction of Muslim-Americans as portrayed in mainstream media..


metmike: My take. In slowly increasing numbers, especially when the long lived Muslims there already have long ago assimilated and are the vast majority., the new ones can better assimilate. Older Muslims are not terrorists. 

Who the attackers were

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-40000952

"Although the number of young people being radicalised has caused concern, the average age of the attackers - 27.5

By metmike - April 21, 2019, 12:08 a.m.
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By 12345 - April 21, 2019, 9:42 a.m.
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By mikempt - April 21, 2019, 10:43 a.m.
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I have thrity years in the fire dept,wood does burn like that!

By GunterK - April 21, 2019, 3:55 p.m.
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"...I have thrity years in the fire dept,wood does burn like that!"

thanks, Mike