And the more moderate thoughtful David Brooks
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Started by joj - April 18, 2019, 9:15 p.m.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/18/opinion/mueller-report-corruption.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage

As I've said on this forum a dozen times or more.  It's not collusion.  But if it looks like corruption, walks like corruption and talks like corruption....

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By joj - April 18, 2019, 10:17 p.m.
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Copied and Pasted  from David Brooks

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It's Not the Collusion.  It's the Corruption

The Mueller report is like a legal version of a thriller movie in which three malevolent forces are attacking a city all at once. Everybody’s wondering if the three attackers are working together. The report concludes that they weren't, but that doesn’t make the situation any less scary or the threat any less real.

The first force is Donald Trump, who represents a threat to the American systems of governance. Centuries ago our founders created a system of laws and not men. In our system of government there are procedures in place, based on certain values — impartiality, respect for institutions, the idea that a public office is a public trust, not a private bauble.

When Trump appears in the Mueller report, he is often running roughshod over these systems and violating these values. He asks his lawyer to hamper an investigation. He asks his F.B.I. director to take the heat off his allies. He tries to get the relevant investigators fired. I don’t know if his actions meet the legal standard of obstruction of justice, but they certainly meet the common-sense standard of interference with justice.

The second force is Russia. If Trump is a threat to the institutional infrastructure, the Russians are a threat to our informational infrastructure. We knew this already, but it was still startling to see the fact declared so bluntly — that the Russian government interfered in the 2016 election “in sweeping and systematic fashion.”

It may not be bombing buildings or shooting at people, but if a foreign government is attacking the factual record on which democracy runs, it is still a sort of warfare. The Russians are trying to undermine the information we use to converse, and the trust that makes conversation possible.

The third force is Julian Assange and WikiLeaks. They are a threat to our deliberative infrastructure. Any organization needs to be able to hold private conversations in order to deliberate. Whether it is State Department cables or Democratic National Committee emails, WikiLeaks has violated privacy and made it harder for institutions to function. We’re now in a situation in which some of the worst people on earth get to determine what gets published.

The Mueller report indicates that Trump was not colluding with Russia. But it also shows that working relationships were beginning to be built, through networkers like Paul Manafort, Donald Trump Jr. and Roger Stone. More important, it shows that many of the Trumpists, the Russians and the WikiLeaks crowd all understood that they were somehow adjacent actors in the same project.

I would say that’s the report’s central importance. We are being threatened in a very distinct way. The infrastructure of the society is under threat — the procedures that shape government, the credibility of information, the privacy rules that make deliberation possible. And though the Chinese government does not play a big role here, it represents a similar sort of threat — to our intellectual infrastructure, the intellectual property rights that organize innovation.

It is as if somebody is inserting acids into a body that eats away at the ligaments and the tendons.

These forces are motivated by self-interest, but their common feature is an operational nihilism. They are trying to sow disorder at the foundation of society. The goal is not really to convert anybody to a cause; it is to create cynicism and disruption that will open up the space to grab what you want to grab. They rig the system and then tell everybody, “The system is rigged!” And therefore, all values are suspended. Everything is permitted.

As I was reading the report I thought of a podcast called “Against the Rules” by Michael Lewis. A recent episode jumps off from the way athletes are getting more vicious toward referees. But that’s not just true in sport; it’s true in society. In all societies there are rules defining good conduct, and there are supposed to be impartial, honest referees that enforce those rules and make sure the game is fair.

And today, across society, two things are happening: Referees are being undermined, and many are abandoning their own impartiality. (Think of the Wall Street regulators, the Supreme Court, the Senate committee chairmen, even many of us in the blessed media.) Things begin to topple.

The system more or less held this time. But that’s just because people around Trump often refused to do what he told them to do. And we happened to have Robert Mueller, who seems to be a fair referee.

The Justice Department has not been defended from political assault. William Barr’s news conference before the report’s release eroded any claim to impartiality and trustworthiness.

Trump doesn’t seem to have any notion of loyalty to an office. All power in his eye is personal power, and the government is there to serve his Sun God self. He’ll continue to trample the proper systems of government.

It’s easy to recognize when you are attacked head-on. But the U.S. is being attacked from below, at the level of the foundations we take for granted.

By metmike - April 18, 2019, 11:21 p.m.
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Thanks joj, much appreciated.

"It’s easy to recognize when you are attacked head-on. But the U.S. is being attacked from below, at the level of the foundations we take for granted."


Interesting take as once again, I think this guy has it entirely backwards and its a big reason why Trump was elected.

Corruption and dishonesty by our politicians and system, including the department of justice as we've witnessed with Comey, Lynch an others,  which has only been working to enrich themselves and favor those who the gate keepers deem worthy of their favors............... while Trump has an agenda that helps the American people.............more jobs, renegotiated deals with trading partners, safer immigration/border laws, new tax laws.........etc. 


Russia, which has been intervening in our elections for decades has now becomes the enemy(yeah, they interfered but thats only new news if you want to believe that false narrative)  as well as Wikileaks for giving us truth. 

Oh, and of course the president is really our enemy,   because, we are to believe that he is a traitor and trying to do all those "Make American Great" things........... not really to Make America Great" (which by the way were exactly what he promised on his platform that got him elected-which he is doing everything possible to fullfill) but because he thinks that he is a God and can do what he wants.............even though it just happens to be exactly the same things he promised to do when running for president.........which, I can't remember any recent presidents doing with the same honesty. 

So answer me this.

What agenda's has the president pursued with gusto are the complete opposite of the platform that he was elected on? How can this be if he is doing whatever he wants recklessly? He is doing what the people who elected him want. 

This is why he has a strong group of faithfuls that stand by him. It ain't because he's a nice guy. It's because he is doing what he told them he would do.............like no other president. 

One side doesn't like his agenda. One side is using his flawed character traits to justify demonizing and investigating him. 

The actual travesty here is what has happened for the past 2 years. No legit, legal probable cause for an investigation into a crime that he was completely innocent of and when the evidence comes out that he was completely innocent, those attacking him PROVE now with out a doubt, that it wasn't about that because..........instead of apologizing for being wrong, while relentlessly attacking him for collusion with Russia for 2+ years, their response is to open new investigations for why he reacted the way he did to the fake charges and unjustified investigation. 


It's all about getting Trump. The Mueller probe failed to get him...........so now the Democrats in Congress get a crack at it. The objective is to destroy enough credibility so that he can't be re elected in 2020. 

These guys writing the opinion articles are right, that the Americans are the ones suffering but on this particular issue, they have the reason completely backwards.


I never liked Hannity that much because he's way too biased to one side. However, he and  sometimes Carlson Tucker were  the only ones that had the non collusion with Russia thing nailed from the start.  He seems to be the only one that understands whats coming next and it sounds like major consequences in surprise fashion as numerous people are held accountable for breaking laws with  this unprecedented travesty. 

Ironically, the illegal power grab has not been Trumps, he was legally elected and not done anything illegal when trying to impose his Make America Great agenda policies. 



By TimNew - April 19, 2019, 5:20 a.m.
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Brook and his hilariously restricted view.

In his narrative, the bad guys were Trump, Russia and Assange. Soon we'll add Barr and anyone else who implicates anyone but Trump, Russia and Assange.

By joj - April 19, 2019, 6:15 a.m.
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It saddens me to see Trump tearing down our institutions that have served us for centuries.  (the ones he and his followers believe are deep state and enemies)

I wonder if you would feel the same as you do if he were doing all of these things while protecting a woman's right to choose (his life long "position" on the issue before he ran).  Would you feel the same about Trump if he were on the other side of climate, and if he were for universal healthcare.  

Because he would have taken ANY position on ANY issue to gain power.  Make America Great Again is an appeal to the smallest minds.  (no better than "hope and change")  Trump is a master of branding and marketing.  Nothing more or less.  

The report lays out in detail how we were attacked by Russia and he not only does nothing to defend us, he takes the word of our adversary over our own FBI.  No one disputes these facts any more.  But I guess if you feel the FBI is the enemy, then we have nothing left to discuss.

By mcfarm - April 19, 2019, 7:02 a.m.
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"taken any position"  dude, he campaigned for months on these issues and when elected tackled them like no other President since God knows when.....much different than the group of hypocrites  on the left running now and exactly why he will wipe the floor with them....

By TimNew - April 19, 2019, 7:14 a.m.
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"The report lays out in detail how we were attacked by Russia and he not only does nothing to defend us"


Refresh my memory. Who was  in charge while these attacks were taking place?  What action was taken?


BTW, whether or not I agree with Trump on issues has nothing to do with my opinion of this investigation and it's outcome, anymore than it did with the Starr investigation.

By metmike - April 19, 2019, 4:21 p.m.
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joj,

I appreciate you sharing your thoughts here.  I'll respond to some points directed at me with regards to the issues.

1. joj: Would you feel the same about Trump if he were on the other side of climate?  metmike:  No I wouldn't because as president, he is acting in behalf of authentic climate science in withdrawing from the fraudulent CLimate Accord.  As an atmospheric scientist and environmentalist that KNOWS the climate crisis is a hoax as we are experiencing the best weather/climate in the last 1,000 years, this counts  a great deal to me.  In fact, I consider exposing the hijacking of climate science for political agenda one of the most important missions in my life. This should matter to everybody as it will dictate the energy policies of our country.........the life blood of our economy. The Green New Hoax or any watered down version of it would devaste our economy/country with ZERO benefits and in would make some environmental realms worse.  https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/27498/

 

2. joj: "I wonder if you would feel the same as you do if he were doing all of these things while protecting a woman's right to choose"  metmike: As every scientist knows, life begins at conception, not 9 months later after it passes thru the birth canal. Forget religion, which is based on faith in things that you can't prove. The scientific evidence of this is irrefutable......and that matters to me. So Trumps position on this is another positive for me.

3. joj: "if he were for universal healthcare" What makes you assume that I'm not for universal health care? I lost part of the eye sight in my right eye because of Obama Care(which made me go to the crummy doctor that messed up) but I have stated here before(in a debate with Tim) that the free market system will never reign in stratospheric health care costs. People can't shop around to get the best price for emergencies or open heart surgery for instance. Nobody is proposing this, but the government is going to have to step in and set limits on the cost of drugs/medicines, procedures and care giving. Without doing this aggressively , we have the recipe for the healthcare system to fail catstrophically under Obama care, Trump care or any other ones our  (in denial) politicians are for right now. They work for pharmaceutical and medical entities that enrich them not Americans.

There  are several other agenda's of Trumps mentioned about(jobs/economy) that are positive(even though his new tax law cost Deb and I an extra 2,000 in taxes for 2018)


So what you are asking is "If Trump didn't have all these policies and agenda's that he's using as leader of our country and that you agree with, would you feel the same way about him?" No. If he had the opposite views I would never vote for him to run our country using a belief system that is the opposite of mine and in the case of climate change is a fraud. 

Would I feel differently about him as a person? Absolutely not. I would still dislike him and see his massive character flaws...............but not hate him intensely because his political agenda is the opposite of mine and especially not hate him because the MSM has devoted 2+ years to conditioning so many others to hate him. 

joj says: "But I guess if you feel the FBI is the enemy, then we have nothing left to discuss" Let's clear that one up for you. Almost all the people in the FBI are wonderful. I don't know but will guess 98%. However, a group of them that were crooked, worked their way to the top and maybe it was the crookedness that got them there but what matters is to hold them accountable for their corruption the past X number of years. Every field has crooked people, lawyers, politicians, scientists, ministers and yes, people in the DOJ, especially those that weren't held accountable for decisions. You are for holding people accountable for their actions, not just Trump right? Let's start doing that.


joj: "Make America Great Again is an appeal to the smallest minds.  (no better than "hope and change")  Trump is a master of branding and marketing"

I agree that MAGA is a great, gimmicky sounding slogan for selling something. I am the last person on earth to fall for slogans. Words mean ZERO. Actions mean everything. Trump is doing exactly what he said when he was using his catchy slogan to appeal to those "small minds".  Do you think those "small minds" would still be supporting Trump if he was for open borders, the Climate Accord, increasing unemployment, liberal judges and doing the opposite of what he promised?

Looks like those "small minds" sized up Trump for exactly who he said that he was going to be when it comes to governing this country.

Does it matter that his positions were different 2 decades ago?

For your information, I believed in dangerous global warming in the 1990's. I believed ALL the climate models then. Is this to be held against me today, after I studied climate science for 2 decades, became better educated, accessed all the data and no longer have to just believe what the mainstream views and media tell me is so?

I only care about trumps positions right now. The ones which result in his actions right now. 

Finally, even with me agreeing with Trump on alot of agenda, he is not above the law. If he had colluded with Russian for instance, he should have been impeached ASAP.

But he didn't break any laws. Why do people keep believing the same sources that have just been proven wrong for 2+ years on Trump. They are just feeding cognitive bias. You will believe what you want to believe and I know anything that I state will never change that 1 iota. 

Thank goodness that isn't always the case On climate change, I love it when you or others post the bogus crisis stuff to confront me because you just got done reading an article or seeing a video that is totally convincing to you. I have all the authentic scientific data to prove its not a crisis every time. Your views on this are shared by a heck of a lot of people and I relish opportunities to prove the authentic science and shine the light of truth on the deceit of the crisis. 

On climate, I've changed the minds of several people, including our deceased moderator Alex M. 

On Trump, I realize the above dissertion will only invigorate somebody that already agrees with everything and be discarded by those that disagree............however, for both parties, we should always constantly be aware of the way that our cognitive bias has a negative effect on our abilities to learn new things....in every realm.

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/28034/

By joj - April 20, 2019, 5:54 a.m.
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Mike-

I see more clearly than ever how differently you and I view the situation.  If Trump held my views and advanced issues to my liking I would still want him removed from office.  He is unfit for the office not because “he’s not a nice guy”.  He would tear down all our institutions of government to protect himself and history will show him to be the most corrupt president who ever served.  Perhaps not the worst president (Bush/Iraq) but the most corrupt by miles.

By TimNew - April 20, 2019, 7:05 a.m.
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And all this time, I thought zero indictments was proof of innocence.   I mean,  you've used that same argument for Hillary for YEARS!!!.  In spite of the long list of serious offenses listed by Comey and witnessed by millions.

Are you saying that this defense only works when the defendent has a "D" prefix. Gosh, it sure looks that way.

By mcfarm - April 20, 2019, 10:57 a.m.
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Tim that defense used by libs has so taken over the party that Pelosi even does not believe it

By metmike - April 20, 2019, 11:09 a.m.
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"I see more clearly than ever how differently you and I view the situation. If Trump held my views and advanced issues to my liking I would still want him removed from office.  He is unfit for the office not because “he’s not a nice guy”.  He would tear down all our institutions of government to protect himself and history will show him to be the most corrupt president who ever served."

Thanks for your input joj!

I predicted exactly that this would happen a month ago. Read all the posts at this thread (not just those copied)and you will see how predictable it was, knowing one side from it's pattern of behavior for the past 2 years...............no matter what was in the report, they would never accept it.:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/26440/

                No new indictments            

                            24 responses |             

       Started by mcfarmer - March 23, 2019, 10 a.m.                                       

So the Mueller report supposedly has called for no new indictments.

Good news I think everyone can agree. Let’s hope everyone accepts this as the definitive report. Clean up whatever is exposed and move on.

                    ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                By WxFollower - March 24, 2019, 12:31 a.m.                                                    

This is great news for the country I’m saying that despite not being a Trump fan.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                By metmike - March 25, 2019, 2:39 p.m.            

            

mcfarmer: "Good news I think everyone can agree. Let’s hope everyone accepts this as the definitive report. Clean up whatever is exposed and move on."

WxFollower: "This is great news for the country I’m saying that despite not being a Trump fan."

Now you guys that are sincere about the best interest for our country and clearly objective will see that this was never about  authentic guilt or innocence of Trump or determining the amount of influence that Russia had in the election outcome.

It's about destroying  Trump and discrediting the results of the election which resulted in him winning and Clinton losing.

 That objective has not changed. Just move the goal posts, with new investigations and tactics but have the same target............Trump. 

Larry, you acknowledge your disdain for Trump but have been able to separate this to some extent from some realities related to the best interest of our country.

Unfortunately, there is a huge group that use Trumps vulnerability because of his massive personality flaws, the biggest weak point of any president in history to do unfair things to him with impunity that would never be tolerated from a fairness standpoint if he was a nice guy.

If you hate somebody, they get what they deserve..............even if they don't deserve it.

If you like somebody, they should always get the benefit of the doubt.

This is human nature being used by Trumps enemies against him. 

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

                By metmike - March 26, 2019, 12:09 a.m.            

            

mcfarmer said: "There was reason to suspect, it wasn’t found. Move on."

Again,  the point is that we are not seeing one side moving on as that side, the one that convinced you that there was reason to suspect(with bogus evidence) is now adjusting the plan, applying similar tactics with the objective of obtaining the same results of the last 2 years. 

Keep the investigations and suspicions and hatred and discrediting, unproven assumptions and fake news going.......as long as possible.

Trump,  because of his inflammatory, easy to hate, narcissistic personality is the perfect target. He gets no sympathy from anybody that isn't a Trump supporter. 

The MSM and democrats can bash him around the clock with anything they want and people think that he deserves whatever he gets............and what used to be journalism, has quickly evolved into extreme political activism. 

Freedom of the press is being blatantly abused. 

Clearly,  there is no moving on or apologizing......by many of those responsible...... for wrongfully accusing Trump, assuming guilt and crimes where there were none for over 2 years. Not just a few times or even a few dozen times but constantly for 2 years...........hundreds of times.

How can all these entities justify crucifying an innocent person, namely the leader of our country that entire time and get away with it.

The reason that this was so predictable:

https://www.marketforum.com/forum/topic/28034/