And most importantly of all, we must ignore year over year data and the rate of MFG jobs being created

trump set to tighten the screw more ...say what you will about trump he will bring china to the table....of course frey, mojo, and cnn will all miss that part and go back to whining about the women and children at the boarder

What will he get from the Chinese ?

I have asked this question of you trade war advocates and you two have yet to answer,  so the question remains for you two what does a win look like.

Or is the trumpeter going to do with China like he did with North Korea and bend over and grab his ankles and let Xi have his way with him

If you have to ask, there is probably not much point in answering.

Trump's stated goal, and I hope he means it, is to establish international free trade. No artificial controls/subsidies by assorted government entities. Let the best products win on their own merit.

So,  when China agrees to removal of artificial trade restrictions, which BTW, several other countries already have, you can consider that a win.

Tim,

While I think you and I are in agreement on this issue of free and fair trade, I see evidence that Trump doesn't seem to grasp the free market concept.  He states often that he wants targets (demands) of balanced trade numbers.  Sounds like a managed economy to me.  We can no more have equal trade than we can have equal income.  

As for GM, I think it's only fair to mention that this move by the CEO has less to do with tariffs than it has to do with consumer buying trends.  (more interests in SUVs and pickup trucks and less interest in sedans)  In post market hours GM stock price was rallying.

The stated goal of trumps in dealing with China is not one of free trade but one  of  monatarly balanced trade. 

He has stated time and time and time and time again about  or trade imbalance with  China  and how they have to fix it.

When the reality is that we in this country created it.

Would cost them 1 billion  per year, they also stated in their release  that productuon of these model's would continue in cheaper overseas  markets. 

So yes most believe the tariffs  played a role in this decision maybe not the  main role but a role.

It's incredible to me that in the age of the internet that someone has to go to such lengths to educate someone, but here are some links for you frey.  This stuff wouldn't fly in the US or in any other country.

http://www.chinawhisper.com/china-brand-copycats-top-20/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/benjaminjoffe/2017/02/06/50-shades-of-fake-how-to-protect-your-product-from-copycats-in-china/#33ab5c0ec7d4

https://www.businessinsider.com/things-that-china-copied-from-the-world-2016-5

And on and on it goes.  If this kind of theft is ok with you, please let us know.  

Good reply, Jim.

It is very simple.  There is nothing complicated about this.  For all those like frey, the question is -

What other choice do we have?

Now, this assumes that we are not ok with being dominated by China, both economically and militarily.  This assumes that we are not comfortable giving away, to a country that has made it known that it wants to become the world power, our wealth and knowledge.

Maybe we need to look at this differently, however.  Are we dealing with people who want to be subservient to China?  Are people like frey uncomfortable being the worlds most powerful nation, economically and militarily?  Maybe frey is a submissive??

understatement of the month  "maybe frey is a submissive"....don't they call him,her, or whatever identified as barrack Obama frey? 

And by the way yet again this morning GM management again states profits great, costs down, we are preparing for a different market make up....uhmmn no mention of tariffs

Hopefully it isn't lost on many people that electric cars have thousands of less parts than their IC cousins.  Less manufacturing jobs.  Less mechanics needed.  This is going to rock the employee base of auto manufacturers.  

In case you want to buy a Chinese knock off of an iPhone.

https://mashable.com/2016/06/17/apple-china-knockoffs/#ogJMNYqbcPqd 

You folks need to decide what kind of a trade deal you want?

Do you want an equal dollar amount of trade which means china buys more USA goods, or you sell less?? Except for soybeans, what can china buy from the USA that is not available from other suppliers, at lower prices.  Would that fly if the reverse was the situation 

You had a huge advantage after the second WW but now that advantage has gone away as the world has built new production facilities while you have coasted along with facilities that were not bombed out shells.

You  bought back shares to increase the stk value instead of investing in newer and more efficient production facilities. A huge misallocation of funds and today you realize you have lost your advantage and are crying foul. Well you need to find a solution to your own problems or a solution that other countries will accept as being equal to everybody.. You even have the reserve dollar and still cry foul. What other advantages do you need???

Do you have examples of ways to have equal dollar trade that makes sense to china?? You will not bully china into buying expensive goods from the USA so that avenue seems to be a dead end. Soybeans will not balance the dollar amounts so what else is available and competitive???

 Another avenue is to have free and fair trade. What does that really mean.  Trump will tell you china has to stop taking USD from the piggy bank. Sounds simple but think a bit on this Trump statement. That money was 1st of all created from thin air. Just printed and run thru the treasury and some other methods to supply money for the deficit. That means those dollars 1st of all were spent on social benefits, military and other gov't needs. Most of that money was spent domestically before it trickled down to the consumer. The consumer then spent at Wall Mart for Chinese goods. If Trump wants fair and equal trade, as he has said, 1st place to be equal is no subsidies. He is talking about chinese state owned production that is given gov't loans and incentives to produce and sell at below true cost to markets abroad. The Chinese see no other option but to subsidize the large producers of goods or they would have huge unemployment and unrest, This unrest just can not be allowed in china. Now if china would for some reason, eliminate state subsidies then the USA would have to do the same. No tax incentives for Amazon to build in a certain location. Oil and gas would have to have legislation to change tax laws,  and ethanol rins. etc etc. Many parts of the USA economy would be affected.. Farmers would have to give up any subsidy such as crop insurance, LPD's and much more that flow from the Gov't. Perhaps even social benefits would be on the table. Does china have equal social benefits. Everything would have to be equal for fair and equal trade, not just a cherry picking exercise, with china eliminating trade barriers and the USA doing nothing, or very little to make it equal. What does china consider as equal??? China and the USA are worlds apart on this issue.

Trump wants china to allow USA goods into china with out barriers or taxes/excise duties paid on goods sold in china.

Well the USA has to look at it's own system of support payments and eliminate an equal amount

I agree that copy cat goods are a flagrant violation of trade rules but there is a lot more to this china issue than Trump is telling the USA citizen. China will not bend unless the USA does the same

I doubt there is an answer to this problem, if a person really digs into all aspects from both sides

Trump tries to make trade with china sound simple

It's complicated, unless you are looking from your side of the equation only. If you look from your side only then you will think it is simple but you are not looking at all sides of the deal, if you think it is simple

I would challenge anybody to come up with a workable solution that both china and the USA would say is fair to both sides.

You can say it isn't fair or something had to be done until the cows come home, but until you offer something that works for both sides, nothing will happen

Complaints fall on deaf ears until a solution comes along.

I have yet to hear an equal solution from anybody, but I have heard lots of complaints

I am sure you know hat happens when somebody has nothing but complaints to offer in any situation.

Walk down any street in any major city in the USA and you will be able to buy a knock off of almost and major designer in the world.

IT IS NOT A CHINA THING IT is a world thing

and you think a reasonable response to that is to start a trade war. OK

The one thing this does is give the trump supporters someone to blame and that is what is most important 

Trump tries to make trade with china sound simple

That's because it is, Wayne.  While some of what you say is true, the issue with trade is simple.

When the President announced the tariffs, why didn't the rest of the world simply shrug their shoulders and go off and trade among themselves, ignoring the US?

When Trump told Trudeau that NAFTA had to be renegotiated, why didn't Justine simply pick up the phone and call China and Europe rather than go hat-in-hand to the person he hated the most - Donald Trump?

Wayne, sometimes things really are simple.

I like the fact that the US is the most powerful nation in the world, Its just that some of us understand bad policy when we see it and also know bad policy is what leads to the fall of powerful countries.

and trump has a bad ill thought out policy with no focus on what he wants to achieve.

but to his supporters this policy does do the most important thing, It gives them someone to blame and as long as he gives them that they will show up at his MAGA rallies.

#SoSad  

That vital agreement on raising wages for automakers really helped out didn't it -- that is what you call shrewd I take it. 

"Walk down any street in any major city in the USA and you will be able to buy a knock off of almost and major designer in the world.

IT IS NOT A CHINA THING IT is a world thing"

Wrong....it's still a China thing.  Where do you think those knock off Rolex watches are made?  Alabama?  No....China.  China China China.  

Indonesia, Taiwan, Philippines, India, Mexico, and at least 5-10 other countries.

So do you think the  buyers of these items  did not know what they were  buying?

And do you think that if they had to pay the price that the original would cost?

IMHO Trump needs to throw a monkey wrench into china's financial markets and cause havoc with china shadow bankers plus maybe a currency war by shrinking world dollars.. Forget the tariffs, that won't work with Trumps home base, with a tax on the voters who shop at Wall Mart..

 China will do anything to keep the folks employed but if the financial markets collapse, china has a problem with asset prices, banker debt and repayments to shadow bankers plus  a possible home price down turn. That will get the attention of the Chinese person in the street really fast, We need to cause social unrest in china, any way possible.  I think most people have figured out that tariffs won't work with china.

Time for plan B and I hope Trump has a plan B

Yes: Trudeau got taken to the wood shed, but nobody asked me  or others for our two cents.

China is very different than Canada

A win looks like intellectual property rights do not automatically go to China.  155,000,000 jobs were outsourced by the prior 3 administrations.  If in 10 years we get back half of those jobs, that is a win.  Finally someone digging in his heels.  They will not be able  to lose even 50 million jobs without serious social consequences.  We have nothing to lose at this point.  This is just like the caravan.  If this 10,000 person caravan gets in, the next is 100,000.  Followed by 1,000,000 and then most of Venezuela.  If you liberals don't want to fight for this country, then move to Canada or Europe which will be unrecognizable in 10 years.  I welcome war to get back what we have already lost.

21 months in country I think I have done my share.

But you go ahead from your comfy little key board and tell me what it takes to fight for my country.